Eitan Stern: 0:00

Just a quick thing before we jump into the episode. This will be our last episode for the year. We have recorded nine episodes this year, and it's been really amazing to put these together, meet different entrepreneurs and hear their stories. Big thank you to all the people that listened, subscribed, shared, and of course the people who took part. We'll see you again in 2023 with more entrepreneurs and more stories.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 0:22

Please don't worry. Um, this is, this is so much better. Are they're like, tell us a little bit about Tally's Joberg diary. Like,

Eitan Stern: 0:30

Okay. Um, I'm just gonna remove my first question. Oh my God.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 0:33

No, no, no. I, I It's different when it's radio. It's different. It's

Eitan Stern: 0:36

Different. No.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 0:37

Got, it's nice to actually talk about it with someone that I know. Yes. Rather than like some weird TV presenter.

Eitan Stern: 0:49

Welcome to Legalese Big Fish Stories, the podcast where we showcase local South African entrepreneurs their stories and their big relevance to the world around them. As lawyers working with startups and established businesses in the tech and creative industries, we get front row seats to some incredible business adventure rides. The problem is that as lawyers, our work is confidential with big fish stories. We're going inside the room with some proud South African entrepreneurs to talk about their airy highs, lonely lows, and creamy middles of the road to success as a country, deep in economic development, there is massive potential for smart entrepreneurs to build something great. Join us as we meet some of these big fish and find out how they're looking to make their ponds even bigger. I'm your host managing director of Legalese Eitan Stern. First of all, thank you for taking part. I appreciate it. This is gonna be the first podcast we've done with two people, so it's really gonna be testing my interview skills, so we're gonna see how we go. Okay, cool. Maybe you guys can introduce yourselves and explain what you do for a living.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 1:49

Cool. Ari, you go first. Should you go first?<laugh>,

Eitan Stern: 1:52

We'll have to a great start. No,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 1:53

Ari, you're ready.

Ari Kruger: 1:54

You should go first. Okay. My name's Ari Krueger. I'm a director, writer, sometimes producer. And how's to Julia Anto solos.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 2:06

And I am an actress, writer and creative director at Sketchbook Studios, which is our production company. And we make all sorts of different kinds of content.

Eitan Stern: 2:17

Okay. So just so that people, listeners ha, we can kind of zone in on why are we making this show? You guys created Elle and uh, tallys.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 2:25

Yes, that's right.

Eitan Stern: 2:27

And we are recording this just as, what do we call it? We call it Tally's Wedding Diaries. Tally's Baby Diaries.

Ari Kruger: 2:32

Tulley ba I don't know. This is, this has been like the problem with this show, cuz we never thought we'd make more than one season. So it of Tally's wedding diary and in hindsight we should have called it like Tulley Babes or something. So it would just be easier to have continued the seasons without changing the name every time. Okay. But I've, we'd say it's like the Tulley Babe series. Yeah. Like if it was to be in like a box DVD set. Cool. I would wanna say like the Tally Babe series. Tulley Babe series. Julia,

Eitan Stern: 2:55

Just so we can prove to the people listening who you are. Do you mind mind giving us just a one second? Tali Babes.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 3:01

Cool. Okay. Lemme just<laugh>. How's it guys? It's me. T how are you? Um, it's so nice to be you guys, um, doing a podcast. I love podcasts cause I listen to them when I'm at the gym, so There you go.

Eitan Stern: 3:14

It's amazing. It reminds me of watching, uh, one of, there's like, behind the scenes of the Simpsons recording, you see the guys doing the different voices. So have you guys always been into film or how did you land up? What is your story? What did you do before you started creating TV shows and YouTube series and whatnot?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 3:31

I think this is a good question, Fari, because he has always been into film.

Ari Kruger: 3:34

Yeah. So, I mean, I started, I got into animation before I got into film. I studied animation, um, because I loved characters and creating characters and then realized it was gonna take, it takes so long in animation, so to make something. So that's, I started of becoming more attracted to live action to filmmaking. Um, and then kind of started pushing myself into that world, um, by making short films and challenging myself to make a short film every year. There was this competition in Australian Sydney called Trump Fest, which I became obsessed with because it's the world's largest short film festival. And I thought if I could just get a short film in a Trump fest, then my whole life will change<laugh>. And um, it took, took four attempts. Yeah. I've just, I I make one and it would get rejected and now I get rejected. And then eventually on the fourth try it got in and it was awesome. I got to go there and, uh, you know, meet all these Australian celebrities that I'd like, kind of had a kept been keeping eye. Eric

Eitan Stern: 4:27

Banner. And you just<laugh>.

Ari Kruger: 4:28

Yeah. And you know who was there? One of the judges was the lead, uh, actress from Greece. What was her name again? She passed away recently. I li Oh, I,

Eitan Stern: 4:36

Olivia, Olivia

Ari Kruger: 4:37

John. And John was one of the judges. Wife.

Eitan Stern: 4:38

Wife

Ari Kruger: 4:39

Would be Myro Fest. Wow.

Eitan Stern: 4:41

But that's kind of, see if I didn't get that, that I didn't know that off behalf.

Ari Kruger: 4:43

Yeah. But that's a kind of Aussie celeb you wanna see. Okay. You know, and then Chris Lilly who made some outside. Yes. That would later become like a big influence on time.

Eitan Stern: 4:50

So did your life change after after you, you got

Ari Kruger: 4:52

Well, it definitely like gave me the confidence to say, no, I'm gonna direct and not gonna, I'm not gonna be animating anymore. And that

Eitan Stern: 4:58

Short movie, is that available somewhere?

Ari Kruger: 5:00

Yeah, it's on ver. Okay, cool. It's called Focus.

Eitan Stern: 5:02

Focus. Was it always comedy?

Ari Kruger: 5:04

That's actually was a drama, but, um, all my other short forms were comedy. Strangely, I made it like a drama, which is based on like a breakup I'd gone through and that got, that's what resonated. So

Eitan Stern: 5:14

That's your backstory to some extent. What about you? You're an actress. I imagine you were acting That's right. Acting beforehand. But how, what was your story of that? You

Julia Anastasopoulos: 5:20

Know, interestingly, I had kind of had enough. I mean, I did the drama school thing. I loved it. I was working as an actress. I was going to all the castings. I was doing these like, kind of gross commercials and feeling a little bit underwhelmed by the whole thing.

Eitan Stern: 5:37

Is that, is that mostly the life of an actress in stuff Africa? Are you doing commercials itself?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 5:41

Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's, well, that's where the money is. Okay. I think you, you sort of yearn to do the nice big theater roles and, and that kind of thing, but it doesn't really happen that much. Okay. Unfortunately. So it was funny because I was like, you know what? I've got another kind of career going on. And at the time I, I was doing a lot of illustration. I was doing children's book illustration and mural making and sort of all sorts of design stuff that I really loved. And I thought, let me actually shift focus a bit and decide that this is what I'm gonna do, which is what I did. And at the time, Ari and I were dating and we just, I guess what sort of happened is that we were both feeling a bit frustrated by waiting around for commercial work, you know? Totally. And just as an aside and as an idea and as this sort of experiment, we were like, let's just make a fun thing that's for ourselves. Let's experiment with these, these characters that we had. And um, and that's actually how SU was born. It was just

Ari Kruger: 6:42

For like, but there wasn't even characters that we had. It was like Julia was doing accents, you know, like she had like, I just remembered who that like the, the Zel accent. You were doing that. And it was so fun. Was I, yeah. Um, even remember where I was when I like heard it, we were at Janie's house and you'd started doing it. I was like, geez, that is so uniquely funny. Like it was Anika's accent, but it had a different,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 7:05

I have

Ari Kruger: 7:05

No memory of this anyway. Like, like sound to it.

Eitan Stern: 7:10

That, that's interesting. I mean, so you don't actually remember the ba the, the Origins, the origin story of Elle wasn't just like a moment that

Ari Kruger: 7:15

You guys saw. No, but it started with that and then we were Vine was big at the time. Yes. Remember, remember Vine 15 second videos? Yes. So, um, I was experimenting with Vine and then we were experimenting. We're like, let's do some character, let's make some Vine videos. And we were made quite a few Vine videos that were like So the transition? Yeah. Like, just like stupid things. We were just playing around. And then, um, what, what

Eitan Stern: 7:38

Is the, what is the tech context at this time? So Vine was around, what was YouTube around?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 7:41

YouTube was around, but not that huge in South African yet.

Ari Kruger: 7:44

Okay. YouTubers weren't around, but YouTube was around. Okay. No one knew like what to do with YouTube. It was like for trailers and like, I don't know. Like so

Eitan Stern: 7:52

So you experimenting with these, with these vines?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 7:54

Exactly. Yeah. And Instagram had just released the video option. Right, okay.

Ari Kruger: 7:58

But it just happened 15 second video. But that came after Vine. They copied Vine. Yes. And then Vine was decimated so it got destroyed. Yeah. But, so we were playing around on Vine. I think they

Eitan Stern: 8:07

Tried to bring it back recently and it's a side conversation, but the, I talked about bringing it back. Did

Ari Kruger: 8:11

They shame? Yeah, shame. Um, and then we like had, I don't know, a part of my, I guess process with making films and short films was always just, and because I'd come from a group of friends where everyone was like a like talented and acting and had characters. I always had a camera and would film my friends doing characters. Mm. And that's how we'd like find a character and start to play with the character. And Julia would clearly had like, she's so talented and had like these accents. And so we just started, I started filming Julia and she started performing and we, we eventually kind of found the SuElle character. Um, but then we didn't really know what to do with her. But then came up with the idea of, because Julia is very diy. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 8:54

Cause you, I mean mean your other aspect was this design creative DIY

Julia Anastasopoulos: 8:58

Aspect. Yes. And the other thing was that Di IY was very sort of trendy.

Eitan Stern: 9:02

Yeah. Pinterest

Julia Anastasopoulos: 9:04

People were searching for that stuff and we thought maybe, you know, if we keep our names off the project, people will search for how to do something and they'll find this weird woman and it's

Eitan Stern: 9:14

So funny. So, so, so you are the also the DIY behind Cele diy.

Ari Kruger: 9:18

I really am. Yeah. All those hacks in the original videos were Julia's original hacks, like putting masking tape on a wall and drilling the hole.

Eitan Stern: 9:25

So how did it go from there? So you, you experimenting with the, these things I suppose. I suppose my question is, so YouTube was just becoming a thing? Yeah. There weren't any YouTubers around where the way that I remember Elle when I heard about it, there were YouTube videos. So how did you make that decision to

Ari Kruger: 9:40

Exactly. It started, so the Vine thing. Okay, so why the Vine thing's important cuz then 15 second Instagram videos became a thing and we'd cut them for Instagram. And that's why it has that quick pace because we were trying to con condense it into like very bite size nuggets of like, you know, quick DIY videos. And then it was just very quickly we were like, actually let's put on Instagram and then on YouTube and we put on YouTube. That's when it really

Julia Anastasopoulos: 10:02

Took us, I think we were also limited by the 15 seconds. We could get the like DIY in, but we couldn't really fit the comedy in. Yeah. And

Ari Kruger: 10:09

The awkward like

Julia Anastasopoulos: 10:10

Pause that's sort of like awkwardness of the character. So we needed a longer format and I think that's why we decided to put on YouTube.

Ari Kruger: 10:15

Oh

Eitan Stern: 10:15

Yeah. And was it an immediate hit that it resonated immediately? Or

Julia Anastasopoulos: 10:19

Was it same videos and am I right?

Ari Kruger: 10:21

Yeah, I, I would say the response was very positive very quickly. Okay. And it encouraged us to keep making more and um, yeah, we were getting a good response. We were putting it on YouTube and then on face sharing it on Facebook. And then soon the comments weren't just like our friends and family commenting, new people were commenting like, who are these people? Yeah, let's just keep making more.

Eitan Stern: 10:42

There was no model. There was no FU business model in it then or anything. No. It was just you guys around at home. Yeah. Putting, putting

Ari Kruger: 10:49

But every video we released became more and more popular a nd we felt the views kind of increasing. Y eah. And then we made the B right P ie. We actually made the sticky hand, the masking t ake one with C am and t hat d id quite well. And then straight after that we made the B ry P ie one and that's the famous one that everyone knows. And t hat r eally took off. And e very d ay w e'd g o o n YouTube it was just like thousands of views w ere being increased like every d ay. And then all these males started coming in with people wanting to partner with S U and the timing of brands wanting to get into this YouTube space and having no idea how to d o it. The timing of that was perfect because they didn't know how to advertise like content was the buzzword. They didn't know how to get i nto the YouTube space. So all these brands wanted to attach themselves to the S uElle m odel.

Eitan Stern: 11:32

And of course that's model has become a massive industry now, which we'll dig into in a few more minutes. Do you guys have any sense on why C was a success? Why do you think Cele resonated so well with South African audiences? And is it just South African audiences? Do you know that? Do you know

Julia Anastasopoulos: 11:48

What I mean? I mean it is the, there's South Africans abroad definitely watch it and I think it, a part of them sort of like makes them feel re reconnected to South Africa. Yeah. So there's, there's sort of that audience. But for me I think like the success of Cele, I think it's a lot of things. I think the wine thing was the timing. I think that the YouTube thing was, you know, it was new. People were watching it, people felt a sort of sense of ownership over this character. They were like, this is our South African YouTuber kind of thing. I think that people really loved that it was so uniquely niche and so South African, I think the fact that it is real diy so you are learning something but then there's the comedic aspect as well. So it was also entertaining because

Eitan Stern: 12:34

The d y was proper. There were no real hacks in there.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 12:37

Yeah. And we maintain that when we do things we like make sure that it's a real thing that people will wanna do.

Eitan Stern: 12:43

Yeah. I know I've been to your studio here before when you guys are like testing things out and trying to figure out d y hacks,

Ari Kruger: 12:50

That was one of the early golden rules. All the hacks must work. Yes. Like there's gotta be real value. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 12:55

Yes. Is Elle still around?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 12:57

She is. Elle still does quite a lot of corporate events. Okay.<laugh> Shame. Where's Elle

Ari Kruger: 13:03

<laugh>? Um, is she in the room? Is she in the room with,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 13:06

In the room with us right now? No shame. You know what? It's very hard to do it all. So when I'm busy with a bigger project, I can't actually do, do do that much Elle. But I think that the main thing with Elle is that she will live on no matter what. Yeah. And for us, I think it's a question of how do we keep reinventing her to make the content relevant again.

Eitan Stern: 13:27

Yeah. She's like a beloved South African character now. Exactly. In the same way that maybe, you know, like freshly ground will maybe never disappear. Completely African name. So. So were there lessons that you learned from doing SuElle? So I suppose the thing which is really interesting for me about any business owners and entrepreneurs is like the ability to like do something, become successful, then repeat it, right? Because that's like, yeah. That is really what it takes to run a business. And it's kind of the reason why you get like professional C CEOs or like, you know, people that have great careers in specific industries. For you guys, you did something well with SuElle wasn't a coincidence cuz you were able to repeat that with Tully. So I'm quite curious about how that process went and were there things that you learned from putting out this, the SuElle show that you then put into play again with Tally or Yeah. Maybe you can speak about how that process went.

Ari Kruger: 14:18

Funnily enough, the Tally project came from frustration with Su because now, since having made it maybe three years had gone by and all we were doing was su like the demand was so high with working with brands and just, um, keeping the YouTube channel going. Um, that we felt we wanted to do something different. And then Julia was also playing around with this, the character of Tulley. Um, but she had the character of Tulley from school. So that character, it was Tulley and Deja. Right. Maria plays, uh, Gino who plays Maria and Cele was Deja. So does the Italian. I mean that's like, like from what I heard about Italian.

Eitan Stern: 14:56

Yeah. Oh wait, did you go to high school with uh, Gina? With Gina? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Okay.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 15:01

And and Varsity we have studied

Eitan Stern: 15:03

At Together.

Ari Kruger: 15:04

Yeah. Okay. And then we just thought like, let's make something different with Tally. Yeah. I'm not a web, actually it was gonna be another web series, but the, the format was different in that it was like documentary and quite reality not in a studio out in the world. Yeah. You know, and, and that's why we wanted, we brought in like Anton Taylor and Lara to set Lara uh, Lipchitz now to sell cuz they were also doing stuff on YouTube. So we assembled a cast of like people known in the YouTube space Yeah. To make like a super team Okay. Of characters that would then be this tally, this new tally show. We took her to brands as we had done with Giselle, but this time all the brands were like, this is cool, but we don't know what the. Like we can't, we don't, this is gonna work for us. You know. And then we had heard Show Max, uh, just started and they were looking for stuff and we sent them this pilot, which, you know, we had gone out and made at our own cost. And the timing again was perfect cause they were looking for the first like, original show and we sent it to the, the, the woman there who like, it just resonated with her in a big way. And, and it got commissioned very quickly. Like within a year we were shooting within a year I think the show came out. It all happened very fast. It's

Eitan Stern: 16:08

Quite interesting for me cuz cuz you, you thought what would change your life would be getting into this uh, Australian short film, uh, competition. It doesn't sound like that's had a massive impact on your career. But then looking around in South Africa and your community and your probably girlfriend at the time, uh, you actually found something that seems to have changed your life.

Ari Kruger: 16:26

Yeah. But that was a very important stepping stone just in like aligning me with what I knew I wanted to do with, you know, directing and cuz that find getting the confidence to just even say you wanna direct when you're like younger is hard.

Eitan Stern: 16:38

Why is that? Is that, tell me about

Ari Kruger: 16:39

That. I don't know. Why is that? It's, it's because a lot of people want to be a director and then if you aren't one, they look at you like, oh, do you really think you can be a director? Okay. You know, that was the feeling I got from especially being in post-production and yeah. Working with other animators. And we also worked for directors who I didn't, we always, it was hard to work for directors and I didn't really like a lot of those directors. So director saying you want to be a director basically meant I was saying I wanna be an<laugh>,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 17:08

Which he really isn't. He's

Ari Kruger: 17:10

Like, no, but that was I cuz I was just saying like, do I have to be such a, do I have to be an if I wanna be a director? That was, I know now I don't. Yeah. But that was a big question back then. And

Eitan Stern: 17:19

What do you think, what's your sense now? Do you think anyone can be a director?

Ari Kruger: 17:22

I don't think anyone can be a director, but I don't think you have to be an to be a director. Okay. You just have to know what you want. You have to have like a vision and you have to be able to speak Yeah. Nicely to people. It's,

Eitan Stern: 17:31

It's, it kind of, look, I think that's one of the powers of YouTube and, and in in social media is that suddenly you could just put something out there and do it yourself. You didn't need to climb the rungs. But I certainly remember as being a, a young lawyer, the legal system is like built on rungs, you know? Mm. And at some point they started adding rungs in that you gomo a Canada attorney to a associate, but then they got something called a professional assistant, which fits it in. And it was like, it's like people are always gonna add these rungs into the ladder and until you, you, cuz they're incentivized for you not to climb it quickly in. So it's interesting that you, what you were kind of saying is that I didn't climb the rungs as a, as a director, I just said as a director and put something out there.

Ari Kruger: 18:07

Yes, exactly.

Eitan Stern: 18:08

That's awesome. That move from moving from putting out shows on the internet to being on tv, is it a big, I mean, is there a substantial difference in putting together a production that's going on YouTube to one that's going on?

Ari Kruger: 18:20

Showmax? Definitely. I mean the YouTube's, the Elle stuff, the, our crew is, so that's just Julia. It started with just Jules and I making it and then we got a little bit more assist in someone in art departments and someone helping with camera and lighting. Mm-hmm. But then the production of a TV show is an enormous, you know, kind of circus of people

Julia Anastasopoulos: 18:38

That you're creating New world and especially the world of Tali. It's, it's big and it's expensive and it's,

Eitan Stern: 18:44

So how did you guys know how to do that? I don't

Julia Anastasopoulos: 18:46

Know how on earth

Ari Kruger: 18:47

I had shots. I, we didn't really know, but I had shots, commercials and music videos. I'd been on big sets. Yeah. So I knew how to, but

Eitan Stern: 18:55

Not in the director chair, you were?

Ari Kruger: 18:56

No, no. I had at this point, director chair, I'd done a couple of commercials and, and been kind of wrapped at different production companies, but I'd never done like a long form 25 day shoots and I didn't know the process of that. And we, we kind of learnt about it while we were in it. I remember saying to Kuni, who was our first ad, your scenes are measured in eighths of a page. It'll say like, this scene is one eighth and then this scene is three eighths. And like halfway through the shoot I was like, what the is all this eighth? Yeah. Like what is this, what is one eighth? And he was like, I mean it have thought like, who has this chmp here? You know, I had no idea. Like, now, now all I look at is like how many eighths is the scene because then you know if you're gonna make your day or not.

Eitan Stern: 19:37

Okay,

Ari Kruger: 19:39

Got you. Yeah. Page notice has broken. Huge amount. So we learned to, in

Julia Anastasopoulos: 19:42

Season one, a huge amount. We made so many mistakes.

Eitan Stern: 19:45

Okay.

Ari Kruger: 19:46

We made so many mistakes, we made absolutely no money also. Okay. We, we lost all of, like, we lost a lot of money making season one because all we wanted to do was make a TV show. Like I would've done anything to make a TV show. Cuz the idea of making a TV show was so impossible. Especially like one with full creative control. Which show Max gave us. Yes. Because up until then every TV show in South Africa was, geez, I'm gonna get, but it was, that was bad. Like it really was like, there was no South African TV show I had ever watched.

Eitan Stern: 20:16

I want to dig into that more, more in a second, but just be, just to pull you back one, one step, what is it like to put together a, a TV show in South Africa? Like, do we have, I dunno if you guys have worked in, in filming the streets abroad, but do we have the right gear? Do we have the right talent? Like it does it all exist over here?

Ari Kruger: 20:33

We've got all of those things. Yes. In fact, our service industry when it comes to say shooting commercials is incredibly strong. Okay. We've like the best crews. We've got amazing. We've got incredible locations. Like we are very, we are very strong and we've got amazing talents as well. Well and actors. But I think what's always lacked with say a TV show has been like the writing. Okay. You know, um,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 20:54

And the budgets.

Eitan Stern: 20:55

Yeah. Okay. Tell me about that. Uh, well, well I suppose more than just tell me about, about that. Like, is making a TV show, you say you guys lost a lot of money on the first season, like, is making a TV show, can it be a profitable venture in South Africa? Or is it, why do you guys do it? Is it something that then spins into brands working with you and there's other models like Yes. Why is it so expensive? Well, it, can it be profitable and is that your aim?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 21:21

I mean, yes. I think it can be profitable. I don't know that it's hugely profitable. I don't think it's like, it's not like we are living in Hollywood or anything. Um, but I think that what people don't realize is how much it takes to make it good. Mm-hmm. You know, I think that in more international models they're pouring money into every step of the project, which includes development, which we don't really, that doesn't really happen in

Eitan Stern: 21:51

South Africa. What, what's

Julia Anastasopoulos: 21:52

Development? So development is taking an idea of an idea for a TV show, um, putting together a writer's room, getting writers in, like really working on a script to make it so, so, so tight and then moving forward with production.

Ari Kruger: 22:06

Okay. But just to be clear, we do do that process. We

Julia Anastasopoulos: 22:08

Do, we do.

Eitan Stern: 22:08

Well it seems like, I mean, cuz

Ari Kruger: 22:10

We didn't do that in season one. No. But we did it in season two and season three. Like we have four months to write the scripts and get the scripts right. And there's a process of development where the scripts are, are read and we get notes and there's rounds of feedback and all that kind of thing that is part of the TV making process. Yeah. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 22:27

And, and I mean, cuz dial back to what you just said a second ago, which is an interesting one for me, is that you said, and with all due respected, you know, it's not like I've watched all South African productions. No. But yes, south African con productions have not, in my mind. That's not the first thing I switch on when I, when I go to the tv. So I'm, I'm like, what do you think that you guys did? Or what is that the factor that you guys put into play to make tally? Why is Tally so good? Is it my question?

Ari Kruger: 22:52

I, I think it's good because we have essentially been like left alone Okay. To go off and make something that like we think would be awesome and funny and cool that we wanna watch and that we would wanna watch and to show Max's credit, they have supported us in that. Like, we get feedback and we get notes and you know, we, we have to also, you know Yeah. Make, make sure that all parties are happy they are commissioning and funding it at the end of the day. But, and especially now with like season three, they do give us the space and, and encouragement to, you know, make it our own and pour our creative ideas and things into, I mean, like, I remember season one writing it and thinking like, there's no way we are gonna be able to do this like, penis butterfly thing or you know, like, yes. Like the, like this is so insane. Like, if we get to do this, this will be crazy and we've got to do all of that stuff. Okay. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, which I don't think had really happened in South Africa before. Yeah. Like, and, and going back to Australia, just four moments. Chris Lilly's show Summer Heights High came out when I was living in Australia in 2007. Yes. And I, I I, I saw it come up on s on a b abc, which is like their government channel of broadcaster. And it was so good and so funny and I was like, oh my God, this is such a funny show. And we, why don't we have this show in South Africa? Like, there's no show that like, I would be able to report back to, you know, and say like, if you're gonna watch a, like a South African show, this is the show you should watch. We didn't have that kind of show. And I, and it's not like I, I had the intention to make that show here, but I think it's the, the cog started to turn, maybe it was from back then. Yeah. And just like that benchmark was so high that he set and also just so you could see so much creative freedom went into that and it was so funny and edgy and, um, at times politically and correct

Julia Anastasopoulos: 24:35

And, and very niche actually. I think that part of it is like leaning into that nicheness of it. What am I trying to say? I I guess like not trying to appeal to everyone. Gotcha. You know, it's not like, okay, we must make a show and it must, you know, show this aspect of South African life or, you know, it's, it's really is just this little slice of Yeah. South Africanness that we sort of tapped into.

Eitan Stern: 25:02

Totally. And that, and that resonates right's. Like when you watch, watch Hollywood movie, it's like when Hollywood movie, it doesn't need to be about everyone in the world.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 25:08

No, exactly. Something about Exactly.

Eitan Stern: 25:09

Have you guys been successful with that in the sense of like, do you know if, if this is a high ranking show on show Max, number one, and second of all, like, do you have a sense about the audiences in South Africa that watch Talis?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 25:20

We don't really have specifics, but we know that it has been successful on Showmax. I think at the moment it's, you know, it's ranked in the top three of what people are watching in South Africa, which is really amazing. Totally. The one thing that's so amazing about it for me is that our audience, the audience that we think is watching Tali, we competing with all the international shows, you know, it's like, am I gonna watch a Hollywood comedy or am I gonna watch the South African TV show? Mm-hmm.

Ari Kruger: 25:50

<affirmative>. Yeah. Which the English speaking show specifically.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 25:53

Yes. Yes.

Ari Kruger: 25:53

That's what I mean. I've always been hard to make tap into that audience in South Africa because the English speaking audience will always choose to watch H B O or Netflix over any local production. And that's, from what we understand, has been a challenge of the broadcaster, how to make like English language shows here that I was gonna captivate the HBO audience. It's

Eitan Stern: 26:14

So fascinating. I mean, cuz that's kind of the crux of it, right? Yeah. Like, is that No, and I guess that's something unique about Tali that no one seemed to have taken on that challenge. And maybe that's why Showmax was so keen to, to fund it and supported because it spoke to that niche, which I guess unless you're working in production, you don't realize that niche needs to be filled.

Ari Kruger: 26:32

I guess what helped was that there was a pilot and we had a 10 minute sample that everyone could see and understand, see the character firstly mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then see how funny it was and, and because I think, I think had we sold them, had we just taken a script to them, it would never have been green lit. Yes. Because Tally on paper and we've even got these notes from, from Show Max. They're like, tally on paper is hectic. Like, are people actually gonna like her? Yeah. And we're like, well, you've seen the pilot and you do somehow like her because of the way Julia plays the character. But like on paper tally looks like diabolical

Eitan Stern: 27:02

<laugh>. So, so what, so what is the challenge for the local industry? I mean, you, you, Julia, you mentioned a minute ago funding that, that these things don't happen because there's less funding here. And it's funny, if I think about Hollywood or or American tv, the, the amount of films that are absolute rubbish Yeah. That get made is like astounding. Like they make moot films that are designed to be straight for TV and whatnot. So is funding the biggest challenge here? Do you think if there was Hollywood style money in South African film production, there would be more?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 27:31

I think I, I mean, yes and no. I think that, I think it's a, it's a deeper issue in that like, a lot has to do with development and the writing being excellent. And I don't know that that's necessarily happening. Okay. And I think that maybe is a funding issue. What do

Ari Kruger: 27:54

You think? I don't necessarily think it's funding as much as it's support that writers in South Africa would need, um, or guidance from say, writers internationally who are like part of like a work, like a working TV writing model. Mm-hmm. Um, because like I said earlier, with all the service work that's come down here, say for commercials, what happened there was you'd have these like senior production designers mm-hmm. Or senior cinematographers and art directors and, and then they train our crew who then get to learn like, oh, this is the level that you're supposed to be working at. And then as a result, our crews become incredibly strong. Mm. But our directors don't get to have that, and our writers don't get to have that. Like, we are still working in an insulated industry. Mm-hmm. And so, and, and mainly Intel novella as well, which is like, um, soap operas. Yeah. And so it's a different format. And, and that's not to knock Taylors because tho those are the number one shows in this country. Totally. But I think that's where there's still a lot of growth. Yeah. That can happen. And, and we, and we would need, like I know as a writer, I would welcome support from like, uh, season television writers from the States mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So just tell us like, oh, you're missing the arc of this character. Like, have you thought about it like this or that. Like we are the ones, we are just, there's four writers in Italian. We are always just challenging ourselves to try and make the work better. Um, but to get those tools because Right. I mean it's like you actually, there's many tools and processes and tricks that you can learn how to do. And, and I think those would help us.

Eitan Stern: 29:24

Yeah. I'm, I'm totally understanding that. I'm getting that now. It's like, and, and that's my sense as well, like South Africa's film industry from a technical perspective has to be great because they're making international commercials and international films here. Um, but yeah. But if they're not making local content, good comedy content, then the, those skills are not gonna be here. So I suppose my question then for you guys, like how do you think about the industry or your roles in this industry going forward? Is, are those tools, is that, are those tools ones that you want to start to, to impart on to other, uh, writers? Or is that not where you got you guys are? Is that not where you're quite attached with your careers?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 30:00

I mean, I don't, I I, I'd love to, I'd love to get to that point. Yeah. I think for us right now is that we just have to try and be the best that we can be. Totally. Ari always talks about the why of, of what we do. So talk about that<laugh>.

Ari Kruger: 30:19

I mean the, I guess the why of what we do is that, and again, this is something that I think we just felt before we were even able to articulate it. Like, I didn't know why we were making Tally's wedding diary. Maybe I did because of the Chris Lilly reference. Yes, yes. But it was just like, I do feel that as South Africans, we, what we actually have as our currency is our localness Mm. And now uniqueness with characters and the way we interact with each other and even accents. And we wanna like showcase our unique brand of South African humor and be at the forefront of taking that to a global stage. Mm. The same way when you watch comedy films from New Zealand, which is also so specific Mm. But so endearing and, and, and amazing because of like how they've embraced themselves and their unique brand of humor. And then it resonates globally. I feel like South Africa is next to be doing that. And we haven't quite reached that level yet, but it's, I think it's coming. And I think there's, it's also coming off a reaction of us retracting when seeing a South African person on screen. Mm-hmm. You know, which was the reaction for, for, for years. You know, like, oh God, that villain's a South African guy and lethal weapon three, like get him outta my face.<laugh>. Yeah. That's changed now. You know, like now South Africans have like the accents and it's kind of celebrated the way we Yeah. And it's become like a, a it's become a currency and Yeah. And I feel like the more that we can lean into that and mine South Africa for those stories and characters, the better the product

Eitan Stern: 31:46

Would be. The, the, the comparison to New Zealand is, is is very, very true. Right. Because that is, there's some flights of the Concords and, uh, the, the one about the vampires Yes.

Ari Kruger: 31:55

What

Julia Anastasopoulos: 31:56

We do in

Eitan Stern: 31:56

The shadows, what we're doing in the shadows. And they're, they're, they're very niche New Zealand's comedy, but they're, they're global sensations. And I suppose you're right. Like what's stopping, there's no, what's stopping South Africa from doing the same thing. I'm, I'm quite curious then, I mean, for you guys, are there other South African shows that you're watching or the writers that you're following? Like who's coming next from following the tally trend?

Ari Kruger: 32:16

I, I don't really know the answer to that question, but I, I, I will say that the has been a massive improvements in like, the television that is being made in South Africa now, especially with the competition, let's say Netflix being here and multi-choice also have stepped up in a big way. They're doing a lot of co-productions, which I dunno if they were doing before, but they certainly are prioritizing that. Sure. Um, so, and, and the writers have definitely improved as, as well. Like, we are working now with other writers that aren't just from our, um, unique, immediate group of friends. Yeah.<laugh> and I, and I'm like amazed, I'm like blown away by some of these writers that we've worked with and how talented they are. And also connected from a comedic sensibility with some of these, some of these guys. So there is like a huge amount of talents out there. And I do think we're at the beginning of everything starting to improve, to

Eitan Stern: 33:00

Move and tick, you know. And then for you guys personally, what is your career dream with this? Because, you know, if I think about someone is doing well in film production or acting or, or directing, you know, the dream is to move on to the big leads, move to Hollywood and, you know, become the next, uh, Ryan Murphy or, or Tina Fay. So in comedy, something like that, I mean, is is that the aspiration for you guys? Are you doing this so you can move over to Hollywood or is it that, is there an investment for you guys in the local industry?<laugh>.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 33:27

It's a hard one. I don't know. Obviously I, I I dream about that kind of success. Mm-hmm. And I think that for a lot of us, that level of success is what it needs to be. Mm-hmm. But I don't know if that's really what I want. I, I can't, I can't, I can't really answer it. I think I'm also in a phase of my life. You know, I've got young kids, I'm, I'm, I can't, it's hard for me to visualize Yeah. That aspect of it. But at the same time, I, I do like, I do have that kind of itch.

Eitan Stern: 33:59

Mm.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 34:00

But I dunno what that looks like yet. You know,

Eitan Stern: 34:03

Because Julie, I'm, it, it must be super real. I mean, I mean, I mean, we call this podcast Big Fish because it's like big fish and small ponds and trying to make the ponds bigger. I mean, I imagine at this point you're now famous in South Africa. I mean, I don't know if you get stopped in the supermarket and whatnot. Do people, people recognize you? Oh, she does. She does. Okay. I definitely want, oh my gosh, I do,

Ari Kruger: 34:25

I do want tell him what happened at the gym yesterday.<laugh>,

Eitan Stern: 34:28

Wait. Before you tell us what happened at the gym, the question for me is like, is it must be like, if you are doing well in the career, like it must be this aspiration of what's next. And, and I can imagine if it's a, what you're saying is that it's a confusing space for you at the moment and trying to figure out

Julia Anastasopoulos: 34:43

What's next. Yeah, it is, it does feel quite confusing for me. And also because I, I feel quite a lot of pressure when we do well at something. Yeah. This sort of same thing happened with Elle. It just such a big success. And then we're trying to do something new and I was like, oh, but what if it's shut? And like, what if nobody likes it? And everyone hates the new character. And so I do feel quite a lot of, I don't know, I'm quite fearful of, of what's next in many ways because I feel like the world is watching or our little fish pond is watching at least. So yeah, there is a bit of anxiety around around that for me mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But I think like, what I would love to do, and I'm not there yet, but I would love to write my own something. I don't know what it is. I dunno if it's a TV show. I dunno if it's a movie that kind of tells more of kind of my story in many ways. I, I, I'm sort of like itching to do that a

Ari Kruger: 35:36

Bit. Okay. Can I be involved in that?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 35:38

Mm, you can direct it.

Eitan Stern: 35:39

<laugh>. Okay.<laugh> what hap what happened at the gym yesterday?

Julia Anastasopoulos: 35:42

Oh, no, nothing really. I, I, I, I do get to stop quite often and it depends, you know, of on like how I, I really don't mind for the most part, people Yeah. Are like, can I get a selfie? Yeah. And like, I'm, I don't really mind, especially if it's kids. A lot of kids totally says, oh, and then we take pictures in the Woolworths or whatever. But yesterday I was at the gym and I was like, no man, please don't ask me for a photo at the gym. I'm like, sweaty, Jim, you know,

Ari Kruger: 36:05

Nothing better than a sweaty self.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 36:07

And I said no to this guy. And I felt so bad the whole day. I was like, yeah, he's gonna like say that I'm such a. And, but

Ari Kruger: 36:14

To Julius credit, it's like the second time I've ever seen, seen No said no. Which is like, I'm also proud

Julia Anastasopoulos: 36:19

Of it. And I was so polite. I just, I was like, you know what? I don't really wanna take a photo right now. I just, I'm just like, I'm at the gym,

Eitan Stern: 36:25

Dude. I suppose that's, yeah. I mean, not that I know much about, about Femme, but I suppose that's, that's probably part of the journey, right? Creating those boundaries. Yeah. I mean, I, so I used to do a weekly show and Espresso tv and my wife thought it was hilarious because the only people that would ever recognize me is like middle-aged ladies, like over, over 50 years old. I love it. And so, so we'd be like, you know, on the pro on the Promenade, I'd get recognized at Fruit and Veggie City, I'd be recognized, but no nowhere else. So it was never any

Ari Kruger: 36:50

Like, were there one selfies with you?

Eitan Stern: 36:52

Uh, no one ever asked me for a selfie. Actually. Not in that age group. You're actually that dude. Yeah. But I'm sure for you it's like gonna be more and more of a thing. I mean, is it a thing for you yet, or, I mean, I mean, I guess I'm interested in success though, right? I'm interested. It's like, what is it? Like you had this idea you wanted to do it, you had the aspirations of winning the competition in Australia. It's like you've achieved this massive milestone of success. Like you go to bed with this big smile on your face every night and think what, think about like, what's next or doesn't feeling anxiety.

Ari Kruger: 37:20

It doesn't feel like that at all. I'm always looking for like what the next thing is going to be and humbled in that. It's not as easy to just say, Hey guys, like this is the next project we're gonna do. And the people that we've got relationships with expect them to just be like, cool, let's go. Mm. But they, they don't do that because, um, every, they've all, they've got their own agendas and things that they're wanting to make and do. And the landscape also is changing so much in South Africa. Like the of, of like the content that people are wanting to make and other strategies. There's so many other things at play, but it definitely, uh, has opened doors. Yeah. You know, like being able to say, you know, we are behind the Tali show and si definitely like, gets you in like a meeting. And I guess success for me would mean being able to work consistently and getting to make more of the, the projects that we want to make. Like if, if that, if we could just keep doing that, then that would be fantastic. That would be my success. And

Julia Anastasopoulos: 38:18

I mean, it's not that we don't not feel successful. I mean we definitely do. There's lots of moments where we're like, oh my gosh, pinch me. Look at us, look at us on set. Shooting a TV show. Yeah. Of just a weird idea a few years ago, and now we are shooting season three, we're at the premier of the, this our show. You know, know, it does feel very, it, it, it feels amazing. Yeah. For the most part. But at the end of the day, I guess it is also just our job and we are doing our job. And that's also what it is really. It's like,

Ari Kruger: 38:51

Yeah. But I, we, I do feel gratitude and lucky to be doing this. Yes. Totally. Even though it comes with its stresses and, you know, whatever. Like it's, there's no, like, I, I feel like I am and we are like living our dream. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>

Eitan Stern: 39:03

We are. And then what's, I mean, uh, uh, you've alluded to that this, there's this thoughts of, of what next. I mean, are there any things that in the works, I mean, I expose my one question is, is there another character that's in the works? Do we get to see, we've seen Elle Tali. Is there another character? Or

Julia Anastasopoulos: 39:19

So many characters?

Eitan Stern: 39:20

There's a lot of

Julia Anastasopoulos: 39:21

Characters, so many characters trapped inside me just waiting to come up<laugh>. Um, you know, we really, we talk about new characters all the time and like, what is this character? Who is this character? And I guess I just haven't had enough time Sure. To, to like sit and really Yeah. Go there. And it takes a lot of experimentation and play. And I think how both of those characters were born with that exact thing. You know, like lots of making little videos and experimenting and, you know, we just haven't really had a chance to do that yet. But, ah, we got so many ideas. I, I mean, I

Eitan Stern: 39:55

Mean, that's so interesting for me. I mean, in, in some ways it's like the story of SuElle and the story of Tali came out of this period of having space to play an experiment. Totally play around. I mean, we're sitting here in your studio, it's like a little wonderland for of props. Like, it, it came out of that. And I suppose with the success of the show, I mean, you guys are very, we're very, very gracious to do this interview with us, but as you said, as we came in, there'd been lots of of interviews and lots of media around it. You two, from my perspective, Sydney, you look like busy people and I'm sure success in film is busy. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> like, so, and I imagine what I'm hearing is part of the challenge in figuring out what next is to give yourself that, that development space, that writer's room, that period to like just sit and play around and figure out what's next without needing to worry about, you know, pitching to another brand and

Ari Kruger: 40:43

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. A

Julia Anastasopoulos: 40:44

Hundred percent

Ari Kruger: 40:45

What, what we did last year and we took some time out to just put it down the ideas that we've been chatting about and actually formulate, even if it's just like a one pager with a, an image and a little, a little bit of a synopsis. And so we've, we've, we've collected together all of our ideas and we've been sending that around and chatting to people about projects like that because I think the, the way that I'd like to move forward is by having a couple of stokes in the fire as opposed to like, this is the next big thing we are gonna do and go out and, and try and make just that one thing. Like Sure. I do think because we wanna make like TV shows, I wanna make a movie as well. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, there's different formats. And I think if you go to, you go to different networks, as I said earlier, they're looking for different things. So the one big project that we might wanna do and expect, say multi-choice to green lights won't suit them, but perhaps it's for Netflix or Amazon or whatever. So I think it's great to like that we took the time to just put together all of these ideas and you know, start having conversations with people about what project would suit them best. Because going in with just one is not, it's ju I don't think it's a good strategy really.

Eitan Stern: 41:51

For sure. Probably not best for the creative process cuz sometimes these things are not ready. Yes. Uh, last one or two questions just before we wrap up. What's it like to work with your, you know, romantic or life partner on set and in putting together a show for work? And then also, you know, as you said, you got two young kids at home. What's it like? It's

Julia Anastasopoulos: 42:10

Very hard,

Eitan Stern: 42:10

But it doesn't look hard. I thought

Ari Kruger: 42:12

It was quite easy.<laugh>. No,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 42:13

Uh, what I was gonna say is that, isn't it easy? Look, I think like the work life struggle is always hard no matter what. Yeah. And in terms of being in a relationship, we're so much better at, at that. I think in the beginning when we first started like working together Yeah. It was quite hard for me to separate myself from the relationship. Yeah. And like, okay, Ari's the director, I'm the actor. I need to actually listen to him. And, you know Yeah, I hear you. It was, it was kind of, I don't know. I mean, it wasn't terrible ever. And actually for the most part it's quite amazing because we are so, we are so in tune with each other. So when you put that in a creative context or in a work context, it, it, it for the most part works really, really well. We really trust each other and we are very in sync and it's, there's kind of like an unspoken thing that happens between us. Yeah. That I don't think another actor director relationship. Yeah. You know, that's, it's unusual for that relationship and I think it, it works really well. Especially when you like so immersed in something and you really having to push

Eitan Stern: 43:16

Very hard. You just want that director to understand

Julia Anastasopoulos: 43:18

You actually just wanna like, be flowing. Got, um, it's great. But it, look, it's hard because our, our home life kind of suffers a bit with our two young kids. We both gone the whole day. Yeah. You know, and the work periods are very intense, so. Got you.

Eitan Stern: 43:33

Okay.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 43:33

We can't rely on one parent. It's like both the parents are taken out of, out of that, you

Ari Kruger: 43:38

Know. And sometimes if I come home with like a stress from the, the thing that we are working on together, I can't share that stress with Julia because then she becomes stressed. Stressed about, and then I become more stressed. So as opposed to like having a Oh, men too. Yeah. Like a partner who's like not involved and can offer fresh perspective. We don't have that. Yeah. You know, so I'll just, I'll just, you know, I'll bottle it all up in science for

Eitan Stern: 44:01

Stress. Just put it underneath

Ari Kruger: 44:02

What's wrong. I just, I say nothing's wrong. Um, everything's, everything's totally. Um,

Eitan Stern: 44:07

Do you guys have rules around like No. Talking about work at after, after five or something? I've seen sometimes.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 44:11

No, but we should. We should. Okay.

Ari Kruger: 44:13

We've become better at definitely better at this. Like, I think having kids like forces you to focus on just the home life now more than Gotcha. We were before, you know? Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 44:21

And then last question, I mean, the way I framed this question is do you have any kind of guidance to, to be the two young filmmakers or actors like, uh, looking to put together a show, but I suppose, suppose I want to reframe that to like, what would you tell, you know, the Ari and Julia 15 years ago, uh, who are aspiring to, to become filmmakers. Like what do you think you've learned that you would like to have known back there? And then I suppose if there is anything that you want to, any tip that you have for new filmmakers or actresses, uh, in the industry, what

Ari Kruger: 44:50

Are your tips? I would say back then, I always hoped that if I just kept doing what I was doing, it would eventually pay off. Mm-hmm. And now I feel like I know that it to be the case and, and not only just from our own experience mm-hmm. But having seen other people I've known in the industry who also were just grinding and doing stuff and struggling and like me thinking like Jesus, like, you know, just like, is this ever gonna go anywhere for them? Yeah. And it has gone places for them as well. Like all our contemporaries have also like gone and done amazing things. And it is just a, it's just a case of like just putting, showing up and knuckling down and just doing that thing over and over and over again and you get better at it and, um, eventually, like something will, there's gotta be some breakthrough at some point, you know, so I think it's, I think there's, I think it's just like sticking to it. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 45:39

So don't give up and get a job in a bank or something like

Ari Kruger: 45:42

That. Try not to. Okay.<laugh>,

Julia Anastasopoulos: 45:44

Try not give up. Yeah. I think I feel similarly and the idea of keep, keep at it and keep practicing, I think that's a big one for me. Mm-hmm. I think both of these characters are a good example of that. So it was like, we're just making these funny little videos and it was just for us. And, you know, by, by repeating it and putting it out there again and again and again in so doing, we were getting better at what we were doing. I was getting better at what I was doing. Um, and all the while you kind of growing, uh, a little audience and it sort of gets bigger and bigger. And by the time we made Tali, we had a following, which, which was amazing. And it was, what am I trying to say? I think that's like a combination of slow and steady Winsor race and practice makes perfect<laugh> kind kind of thing.

Eitan Stern: 46:30

I think that's too summarize that I've quite nice.

Julia Anastasopoulos: 46:33

Like, I don't know, but I, I I guess, yeah, it's like a keep at it kind of thing and put yourself pr, make, make, make things and put them out there and change things and experiment and, and play. And I feel like so much can be born out of that sort of creativity without like, trying to hard to do this thing that's gonna be a success. You know, I think I, I, I think that that's not the right angle. I think you've gotta just like

Eitan Stern: 47:01

That resonate, do

Julia Anastasopoulos: 47:01

Your thing, you know, like find that thing that's in you that you wanna do. And I think

Eitan Stern: 47:07

Play with it. I think like a lot of creative people struggle. That's what they struggle with, right? Yeah. And we did an episode with, uh, with Daniel Cl, fiancee Knowles. We spoke a lot about that, which is like, the part of you which is creative is the one which, which is like very insecure, critical of your own creativity. So That's true. Putting it out there, which I agree is the most important thing. It's like, try and test. Try and test. Mm-hmm. That's the thing which creative struggle with. So it's, and so what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And I, and I hope that more creatives do hear that. Just cool. Put it out there and see what happens. And if, you know, no one, if, if people don't like it, they won't watch it. That's a good point. I'm happy that you guys put Talia and Elle out there and I'm happy that we are sitting here. Thank you so much for joining us. I really enjoyed chatting to you both. Thanks. Thanks for having us. This is great, man. This podcast is recorded by Simon Atwell. The intro music is by pH Fat. I'm your host, Aton Stern. For more information about legalese, catch us on legalese.zero today or on the socials.