Eitan Stern: 0:00

Everything in here makes for a good studio. It's a nice padding of the bed. Yeah . Some inspirational art on the walls. It is a sound engineer in board shorts,

James White: 0:09

<laugh> . Great board shorts . This is how we Roll.

Eitan Stern: 0:12

This is How We Roll. Welcome to Legalese Big Fish Stories, the podcast where we showcase local South African entrepreneurs their stories and their big relevance to the world around them. As lawyers working with startups and established businesses in the tech and creative industries, we get front row seats to some incredible business adventure rides. The problem is that as lawyers, our work is confidential with Big Fish Stories. We're going inside the room with some proudly South African entrepreneurs to talk about their airy highs, lonely lows, and creamy middles of the road to success as a country, deep in economic development, there is massive potential for smart entrepreneurs to build something great. Join us as we meet some of these big fish and find out how they're looking to make their ponds even bigger. I'm your host managing director of Legalese Eitan Stern . So why don't you kick us off. Tell me who you are and what do you do for a living.

James White: 1:10

I'm James White. I currently am the CEO of a company called Best 10 , and we essentially partner with health insurers to manage their overweight and obese cohorts and to try and bring those people back in range. Hmm .

Eitan Stern: 1:29

So you want to hear more about that in a few minutes. When we were discussing doing this, you said you actually hate the question of what do you do for a living? Yes . So if I was to re-ask it, who are you? James White

James White: 1:39

<laugh>. I look, I mean , I think the reason I I hate it is because when you're a young entrepreneur, it's, it feels very, very challenging and very, very difficult the whole time. Right? Yeah . Everything feels impossible. I think you all you hear on places like LinkedIn is that, you know, this is , this is the funding I've raised. Yes . This is, this is the exit I had. Yeah . This is the Series C that we've got. You don't even know what a series

Eitan Stern: 2:09

Is

James White: 2:09

At the point. You know , honest to God, you don't. Right? Yeah. And you listen to the Tim Ferris podcast, and what's the first thing he says? Like, James White founded this and exited this and started here and spoke there. And I just feel like, yeah. I just feel like it's literally a status driven thing the whole time. It feels like, particularly in the startup world, unless you've done something Mm . Deemed significant, you haven't got a voice.

Eitan Stern: 2:32

So, so if I'm gonna, I'm gonna reframe the question that there's an ex , there's a , uh, my brother told me this once , says like an explorer , that he had described himself with three words, and he was like, so and so explorer. Um , adventurous something. Mm-Hmm . So what , so what are you, James White. What are your three words?

James White: 2:48

My three words? Uh , helper, certainly father, probably Father first .

Eitan Stern: 2:53

<laugh> father. Helper.

James White: 2:54

Helper. Helper. Second friend.

Eitan Stern: 2:58

Okay . Third entrepreneur doesn't make top three. No.

James White: 3:01

Okay. <laugh> . No, no, it's not.

Eitan Stern: 3:03

Well, I mean, we'll , I'm sure in the next , uh, hour, so we'll dig into Yeah . Why it might need to make top three. Yes . But you de you are an entrepreneur. That's how you describe yourself. Sure. Um, have you ever not been an entrepreneur? Have you ever had a job?

James White: 3:14

I had a very fleeting , uh, legal career. Oh , right. Yes. Yeah . <laugh> , I'm a lawyer by profession and studied , uh, law and did my articles Okay. Which was absolutely toilet Really. In, in a word. Yeah. I hated it. Yeah. Absolutely hated

Eitan Stern: 3:32

It . Someone described articles to me as once as saying, when you're an article clock, when the hits the fan, one way or another, you're getting s splitted

James White: 3:39

<laugh>. Yeah . That's survived , right ? No , I did mine, some of mine in Pretoria of all places. Okay. And then transferred down to Cape Town. Okay . Yeah . Look, I mean, I didn't enjoy law when I was studying it . Right .

Eitan Stern: 3:50

So, so the topic of today is, is can you be a healthy entrepreneur? Yes . So I'm , I'm gonna start digging into that. So , yes . So before we get into the work that you do, and maybe some of the accolades, or might have to find a different word, <laugh> , where did your health journey begin? Because you , you , you , yeah. I mean, let's start with that. Where did your health journey begin? Well , how do you define a health journey?

James White: 4:07

Yeah. Look, I, I think it's, it depends on what stage in life you're at. Certainly. That's the way it's been for me. Um, I think what you , what you wanna do in your twenties is very different what you wanna do in your thirties. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm 14 next year, but I can feel it evolving. Yeah. So my health journey starts . I always played sports . Okay. Played sport at , at school and, and at university I played rugby. Yeah . And I suppose like, as, as I started getting older, I realized that I had to take care of myself if I wanted to carry on doing

Eitan Stern: 4:38

So you were one of those guys that played sport in school, but didn't get a , a book when you finished school, right . Kept , kept active.

James White: 4:43

Yeah. Perhaps vanity. Vanity driven <laugh>. That's funny . Um, but , uh, yeah, I think I , I studied overseas at a play at a university called Borough in the UK for a year. And I really started to get into my first avenue. Love was working out, like training. And that probably sat with me for the two years that I came back and did articles. Okay . And when I was studying my articles, I'd certainly knew I wasn't gonna do that for another God month. Yes . For when I finished, let alone as a career. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 5:13

I mean, there are some lawyers in the room, so

James White: 5:15

Just Yeah. Look, I mean ,

Eitan Stern: 5:15

Let's all just take it easy.

James White: 5:17

<laugh> it . Uh , I think something we should talk about is capacity a little bit later. Yeah . Um , but, and then at the time, CrossFit, which everybody's heard of now, right ? Yeah . But in 2011 that didn't really exist . Exist, exist . Certainly not in South Africa. Um , there was one gym in South Africa.

Eitan Stern: 5:36

Is CrossFit like the , the brand of it? What is functional training? What's CrossFit? Or is it the same thing? Uh ,

James White: 5:41

No, they're definitely not the same thing. Cross, I think CrossFit made functional training a sport. Right . Okay. Cool. And , and a very, very well-branded sport.

Eitan Stern: 5:50

Right? Yeah . Cool. So 2011, the idea of CrossFit is , is launching.

James White: 5:54

Yes. Um, and, and so there was one in Cape Town and no other gyms. It was Virgin Active exclusively, and maybe Planet Fitness at the time. Right. But no boutique gyms, not even yoga studios really at that time. Yeah . And I got deep into CrossFit in 2011. Like most people, the bug bit hard . Okay. And then , um,

Eitan Stern: 6:12

In the sense like , you were competing in

James White: 6:14

It , I I was , uh, no, not competing. I mean Yeah. In a , in a way competing, I suppose you compete virtually on leaderboards, but like, I think just really realizing like, God , this is, this is this I could do forever. Wow. You know, this is not bicep curl in the gym. Yeah . This is like

Eitan Stern: 6:29

Really pushing yourself and challenging yourself and

James White: 6:32

Exactly. Right. And, and then quickly realized that this also wasn't applicable to the vast majority of people. Like hand a handstand walk for somebody who's 30 kgs overweight. Mm-Hmm . It's just like a non-starter. Right. It was a non-starter for me, let alone somebody else. And so I was like, there's, there's something here in the, in the sort of mental fortitude side of things, but , uh, it needs to be made applicable. And so that's what I decided to do. And I started a gym called R Gyms in 2012 mm-Hmm . And it was men only Okay . At the time . Which , uh, yeah, look, I mean, different time . It was 2012. Yeah . <laugh> , uh, I will caveat this. By singing 2013, we opened a woman's only gym. Okay . But yeah, I just , just

Eitan Stern: 7:12

Outta venture . What , what was the thinking back then? I mean, not , not that it's a problematic thing. These things are always different when viewed in the context of times. Yes . But , um, I mean, yeah. What what was the, I know you're a boys school guy, I'm sure, I know that you got guy friends and like, what , what , what was the concept in it? What was the thinking behind it?

James White: 7:29

The thinking was that , uh, I felt that men had lost , um, spaces where they could just be men. Okay . Uh , in quite a primal Right . Primitive way. Yeah. And I've seen this happen. I saw this happen at r when there'd be 30 guys in there and one woman would walk in 'cause she was lost. Yes. And the temperature of the room just changed. Just changed. Okay . Completely. Guys started pulling their shirts down. Yeah . Suddenly we're embarrassed. Yes . And that's, that was the reason that we didn't have it, is because I wanted it to , to just be about the training. Interesting. It had nothing to do with

Eitan Stern: 7:59

Excluding. Yeah. And I'm sure , and that doesn't, the way I know you , that, I mean, you're the , the only male in your house of lots of women. That's right .

James White: 8:05

Yeah. Very happily .

Eitan Stern: 8:06

You know , it's a , it's like an opposite gentleman . So that, that , that's interesting. That, that's, that that's open . Okay. So you start this idea of, of Rock gyms

James White: 8:13

Started it and, and just

Eitan Stern: 8:15

After articles. So before , this

James White: 8:16

Is after articles, after I month after . Okay . I mean, like literally took a 90,000 round loan from Standard Bank. Right . Could only met half of the space I rented. 'cause I had no money. Okay. Uh , bought some barbells. Yeah . And started and hoped people would come. I had no, I dunno if we had a website, but definitely no advertising.

Eitan Stern: 8:32

How did you spread the word

James White: 8:33

Friends? Initially? A couple of people came and then it just caught on like wildfire really.

Eitan Stern: 8:38

It went immediate. It

James White: 8:39

Went crazy. Okay . It was absolutely insane. We were, yeah. I mean, we, we probably had 250 members after our first year. Incredible. Then we opened a women's gym, as I said, in 2013, and we opened up opening six. Oh, wow. Two of them in San Francisco. Um ,

Eitan Stern: 8:55

It was crazy. Okay . I mean, I do wanna know a little bit more about this because I , I , I don't want , I want to get to , to the work that you're currently doing. Yes. But, so, so you , you ran that for how many years?

James White: 9:03

I had it for maybe nine years, I think, before I sold it.

Eitan Stern: 9:08

Okay . And that must have been literally working within your passion, right? Yes . Was it , so did it stay as that? I mean, you , I imagine you're training for free every day and or did it , did that kind of wave o over time?

James White: 9:18

Yeah. It's, it's brute , it's hard. Okay . It's really, really hard. Um, I think you're putting in crazy hours on your body. Right. Um ,

Eitan Stern: 9:26

Like

James White: 9:27

Crazy

Eitan Stern: 9:27

Hours . Were you , were you training people as well?

James White: 9:29

Yes. I mean, I was battling to even do my own training. I would imagine that any, any personal trainer or gym owner out there, this resonates. I know for a fact this resonates with them. Okay . 'cause it , we, I've spoken to them and there's a lot of information out there, but I was, you know, you Yeah . 4:00 AM 5:00 AM 6:00 AM 7:00 AM 8:00 AM Right . Just training people, just people and , you know, picture yourself walking into a class. Yeah . What do you want? You want my , you want the guys taking the class to give the same

Eitan Stern: 9:54

Attention

James White: 9:55

You gave

Eitan Stern: 9:55

The

James White: 9:55

Previous group of guys. Right. You can't, you can't just stop, you know? Yeah . And this was something new, so people are already skeptical. So you just had to be on whatever, 8, 9, 10 hours a day, try and fit your own training. 'cause you , you've gotta be an example. Uh , I was 27 at the time so I could do it.

Eitan Stern: 10:11

Yes. But

James White: 10:12

After a year, I quickly realized that this was not gonna, this is not sustainable. And also , um, the problem that these types of gyms have is that it was called Raw Gyms, but it might as be called James White.

Eitan Stern: 10:23

Okay.

James White: 10:23

It might as well have been because Right .

Eitan Stern: 10:24

People wanted ,

James White: 10:25

Everyone wanted train with me. If I didn't, if I wasn't there, nobody, and that's an arrogant thing. I started it , everyone saw me, you know? Gotcha . But then I opened a second one and I , I went for that second one early because I wanted to distance myself from it. Okay . You have to have a brand. You have to have something that is more powerful than you that outlives you.

Eitan Stern: 10:41

That's, yeah. I mean , and the brand today, that's literally happened, right?

James White: 10:44

Oh , a hundred percent. It happened early, but I had to cut that cord early. Early. Okay . And it was hard for some people.

Eitan Stern: 10:50

So you said that you , you sold it. How did you finally make that decision to sell and move on?

James White: 10:53

The passion was gone some quite some time before that. Look, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's interesting how people start doing the thing that they love. Right. And they think that that's all they'll ever do.

Eitan Stern: 11:07

Right.

James White: 11:08

Because it's enough. Right . You, you make 10 grand a month and you think that that's all you'll ever need. Yeah . You know, like it's, it's the classic entrepreneurial

Eitan Stern: 11:16

I know that feeling .

James White: 11:17

Yeah. I think a lot of people do. Yeah . But my advice, if I could give some to anybody, it's like, just realize that that isn't gonna last forever. Okay . You know, that it's going to get too hard at some point, either because you're gonna grow too quickly or it's just you and there's no business without you. Yeah. Um ,

Eitan Stern: 11:35

I imagine also, if you find yourself in your twenties, having started a successful business, which is quite rare, at some point, if you run a business successfully, and for scale, which it sounds like you were doing, you opened up numerous of them. You did this difficult thing of separating the brand from yourself. Mm-Hmm . At some point in your twenties, you're gonna get bored of what you're doing , doing, you're not supposed to find your life work Yes. In your twenties. Yes.

James White: 11:56

Yes. It was a , it was a bit of a curse actually, to be honest. Okay . Because it went so well, so fast. Yeah. I remember my best man at my wedding stood up and he said like, everything touches , uh, James touches turns to gold. Yeah. I was 30 years old. That's a lot of pressure . Years old. A lot . And it was just, you know, like, that's not true. Um , but it was at the time, like, I couldn't miss

Eitan Stern: 12:18

Did you believe it at the time?

James White: 12:20

Uh, yeah, I think I did. Okay . I think I, no, I don't think I absolutely know . I did . I went

Eitan Stern: 12:24

And , and , and what , and what , what changed Did , did , did , uh, I suppose just getting older, having kids or , or did , was there something in your wake ? Did something fail and bug out?

James White: 12:32

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean, the , the world is gonna push back into you at some point,

Eitan Stern: 12:36

Right ? You wanna share what happened? Or is

James White: 12:38

This , uh, sure. I mean, we, we moved to San Francisco, as I

Eitan Stern: 12:40

Said, you start to start more gyms.

James White: 12:42

Yeah. We, we had already started one with an American guy over there. Yeah. And the classic problem of CrossFit gyms and gyms like mine happened where the guy who was built around left. Okay. Over a disagreement. Right. Um, very unfortunate circumstances, but I was left alone with a group of Americans who didn't know who I was. And I was starting again Okay. Taking classes again. Uh , and my wife is pregnant. Okay.

Eitan Stern: 13:06

And you find yourself living in San Francisco. Find

James White: 13:08

San Francisco

Eitan Stern: 13:09

The most expensive

James White: 13:10

City in the world. Yeah .

Eitan Stern: 13:10

Not the same as Cape Town.

James White: 13:11

Exactly. Alone. No

Eitan Stern: 13:13

Help . So , so life pushed back . A little of you pushed back . Yeah . And very , okay . Obviously you finally , we chatting here in Cape Town, so Yes . Yes . So I imagine you , you've moved back. Yes . How did it finally feel when you sold ?

James White: 13:24

Uh , it felt good. Look , it was like a management buyout. So it was a bit of a process, but it was, it was absolutely the right time. Yeah. I've shared this with you. Yeah . You know, like, you gotta know when your time's up, because if you don't, then this thing you birthed is going to die.

Eitan Stern: 13:41

Why? So

James White: 13:42

Maybe it won't die, but it'll never be what it could be. It'll never be what it should be when someone with the right amount of energy can come in and take it forward. That at least that's my thought, you

Eitan Stern: 13:51

Know ? Right . There's something in there that the , the skill of a good entrepreneur is to recognize those moments.

James White: 13:56

Yes. And you , you hear that a lot. Right. You hear guys not who are founders and CEOs and they go like, I just can't take this thing any further. Yeah . And they get in a new CEO and they take a back seat , which, you know, that's a diminished ego to do that. Yes. Um , but probably come through some hard lessons. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 14:13

Okay. So, so you sold this company. And just last question on r uh , do you ever go train there still?

James White: 14:19

I don't, I haven't been. I mean, I don't live in the City Bowl anymore. Um, but

Eitan Stern: 14:24

Do you think you people would know if you walked in ?

James White: 14:26

No. No. Nobody has any idea. I actually went far 10 year , like , uh, a year and a half ago, whatever. And nobody, they're got to introduce HeartWise to the class. Like That's great . It is. I mean, it's, it's absolutely incredible to walk in and the ethos that we, that we instilled in that business and those members really endures amazing. You know? Um, yeah. I mean, if I can say just one thing on that, it ties into the health conversation. Yeah. And I think that this is valuable for anybody is that like we, what we used to say is that what you do in the gym ripples into every aspect of your life. Totally. And that could be a running trail. That could be, it doesn't matter what, what you do with your body is going is the most tangible thing that you can use. It's the thing that's completely at your disposal. Right ? Mm-Hmm . It's completely in your control. There are no external factors there . Yeah . You can use it. And the ripple effect when you don't quit when things get hard when you're running in the mountain. Yeah . Or in the middle of a set, or on the rowing machine or whatever. 'cause things are gonna get hard Yeah . In life. You know, they're gonna get hard with your kids. They're gonna get hard in your marriage. They're gonna get hard at work. Yeah. And you can train toughness. You can train fortitude.

Eitan Stern: 15:39

If you can help build fortitude in yourself, in Jim , you can take that lesson south parts of your life. I , I totally agree with that. I know when I'm the happiest and working the best when I'm physically healthy. Mm . And I remember learning the lesson when I was in, I think at law school. I went through my first proper breakup, heartbreak. Mm . And I remember I got super into exercise. 'cause suddenly there was this thing, like, you couldn't control whether the girl loved you. That's right. You couldn't control how hard the exams were. The one thing that you could control was how fit you were. Yeah. And having something that I could take control over in my life, like made such a difference. And I've always held onto that, that lesson. And so, I'm not a gym at today. I, I like trail running and somehow I'm the least likely ultra trail running . But I love the , these experiences Sure . Because no one's making it short of you . No one's pushing you up that mountain. It's just you, it's hard. It's supposed to be hard and Yeah . You know, you gotta put one foot in front of the other. And that is a brilliant lesson in life. Mm-Hmm . I think it's a good lesson for entrepreneurs as well. Oh my

James White: 16:34

Gosh.

Eitan Stern: 16:36

So, so, okay. So Rock gyms closed down. Mm-Hmm . So today you're running this company Best 10. How did that start?

James White: 16:42

Um, so Rook didn't close.

Eitan Stern: 16:44

No , sorry.

James White: 16:44

<laugh> R

Eitan Stern: 16:46

Sold to the managers and

James White: 16:48

Josh my legacy. Yeah . No , I'm joking. Um, so then , uh, so actually, I mean, you know, within, within hard times our , our , you know, nuggets, if you look for them. So when I was in San Francisco, there was this , uh, idea around businesses like ours. The biggest problem with gyms is that they , they don't scale. Mm-Hmm . You put 200 people in and that's the most people you can ever have Right . You're ever gonna have in that gym. So how do you make more revenue? There's only one way it's charge more. Yeah . But like, you know , people are price sensitive at the end of the day . You can't be like, how's it guys? It was $50. Now it's 80. Yeah . Because you got more revenue, but the service hasn't gotten any better. So there's this thing called PT First . Right. And PT first means that what's gotta happen is you've gotta have a personal training session before you can join the group class. Right. You pay for the personal training session and you pay a premium. And if you're a complete newbie, you might need five personal training sessions before you can join the group class. Right . If you a rockstar and you walk in, I assess you for 20 minutes and you can join the group class, but there's paying. Right.

Eitan Stern: 17:48

Right. You're trying to keep it as an elite.

James White: 17:50

Absolutely. So the the idea started off as a revenue generator Okay. For the trainers and for the gym. But what they found, this company called Zendesk did a huge study over like two and a half thousand gyms just like ours. Hmm . And they found that if there was a one-on-one session, initially the lifetime value was twice as much as if there was a two-on-one session.

Eitan Stern: 18:14

Right.

James White: 18:15

And it was four times as long as if it was a four on one session. Okay . Right. And I saw that when , when I, I remember hearing this, I remember the moment I heard it in a podcast, and I was like, my God, all the members of r who were with me in the trenches for the first year, they're <inaudible> , they're still members of R Okay.

Eitan Stern: 18:31

12

James White: 18:31

Years later

Eitan Stern: 18:32

Becomes part of their identity.

James White: 18:34

Why is that? Right. And it's because of this initial connection, this deep connection with somebody where I I I don't, you're not a number. Yeah . I know what you do. I know if you've got kids or not. I know what you struggle with. Yes. I know what you're good at. I know where to push you and where not to. And I thought, okay. I, the thing that frustrated me so much about raw , 'cause there was no scale. I couldn't, I couldn't scale it. The only way was to open more gyms. And I was done with that. And so , um, I started Best 10 , which was the idea of scaling support. Mm . This one-on-one Hyper-personalized support. And so we started it with each client got their own nutritionist and their own personal trainer. So you got two, it was expensive. It's like two and a half grand a month to start. Okay . And , um, it worked like it really, really

Eitan Stern: 19:22

Worked out . What does it mean it worked ? People signed up or people got fit? Eh ,

James White: 19:26

Both Look, the product, the product definitely worked. When I look back now, I wonder how much down of that was down to price point. Okay . You know , like if you commit something Right .

Eitan Stern: 19:35

You paying , paying 2000 round , you are gonna

James White: 19:36

Do it. Right. Well,

Eitan Stern: 19:38

That could be argued, but I hear you. Yeah.

James White: 19:40

I , I , I think that that was a big doubt in our minds. Um, but it, it worked from a, a referral perspective. I mean, we look, we also launched in February, 2020, which was one month before the world stopped.

Eitan Stern: 19:54

Right . And this was a in-person session?

James White: 19:57

This , this ? No, this was virtual.

Eitan Stern: 19:57

Virtual. Wow. Okay. So we

James White: 19:59

Were, we were placed, like we couldn't have been placed better. Right.

Eitan Stern: 20:02

So that was best time you went onto a platform. You , you signed up, you got a personal trainer and a , an nutri over

James White: 20:07

WhatsApp, and you got a plan and bums away. I mean, it was basic. It was

Eitan Stern: 20:11

Literally that . Yeah . That was , there was no

James White: 20:13

Fancy anything. It was like, I'm just gonna support you. And , uh, my sister and I started it together. Mm . Uh , we had no idea what we were doing except just the, the drive to help people and be really engaged. That was the criteria. And , um, we did a million Rand revenue on our , in our fourth month, I think.

Eitan Stern: 20:34

Wow. Yeah . It just resonated with

James White: 20:36

People. It just bummed. Yeah. It just absolutely took off, which did nothing to stop the, everything James touches turns to gold situation story that Yeah . Because like, startups are just so easy. Oh my God. I mean , I'll just keep this , just keep doing it. Slam dunk. Right ? Yeah . Again, you know , like , uh, and unfortunately that's not how things <laugh> carried on. So

Eitan Stern: 20:56

How did , so how did things carry on?

James White: 20:57

So we , look, we got funding , uh, early on. Uh, like I only say that maybe we , we can talk a little about, a little bit more about funding later. Yeah . I don't say that as like a ,

Eitan Stern: 21:07

A success metric.

James White: 21:08

Yeah, exactly. At all. Yeah . I don't think that is any success metric for anybody listening.

Eitan Stern: 21:12

Right. It's actually like

James White: 21:14

No success

Eitan Stern: 21:14

Metric. Yeah. My my view around it is with funding, you need to convince one person that you're right. With building a client base, you need to convince lots of people that you're right. Also, client base doesn't give you debts necessarily. <laugh> has funding. Funding might <laugh>

James White: 21:27

No, look, I mean, exact , you're exactly right. The market doesn't lie. Yeah. Right. Uh , they will tell you brutally, honestly, if you've got something or not. Sure. Which it did. I mean, the market loved it. And for a year we had a phenomenal first year lights out . First year , um, zero planning, financially thought it would last forever. No acquisition strategy. I mean , how's it ever gonna stop? You know ? Yeah . We had clients in 50 different countries.

Eitan Stern: 21:54

So then what happened? How did it

James White: 21:55

Stop broke ? Covid. Covid ended Right. And people went back to gyms and people got sick of working out in their living rooms. Gotcha . And people felt like all day . Yeah. I think Covid was quite binary. Yes. People got really healthy or really unhealthy. Yes. And the people who got really, really healthy got tired of being really, really healthy. 'cause they didn't eat at a restaurant. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . They didn't go out. They didn't drink with their friends. They didn't do anything. Yeah . And so the world went back to normal.

Eitan Stern: 22:19

And what happened to the business?

James White: 22:21

Uh , we , we fell off a cliff. Fell off a cliff. Okay . We fell off of a

Eitan Stern: 22:24

Cliff. But now you've got all the infrastructure, you've got all the trainers, you've got everyone up

James White: 22:28

There , all the staff . And we don't, this is not an Uber business. Right . This is, we employ those

Eitan Stern: 22:31

People. Everyone's looking at James , James White, this isn't gold. This is

James White: 22:33

Not going well. You know? Uh , and, and it really didn't, man. It took us a while to, to rectify the ship. Okay . I think the, the , the big problem was also that everybody in that space rushed to the same space. Got you . The , the , the PT in his garage could show up on your Instagram feed just as much as we could. Right. And that just made it diluted. Everything.

Eitan Stern: 22:56

Yeah. So , I mean, this is actually something which I wanted to chat about. You , you once spoke to me about this Yes . That , um, you know, you could keep, I know when I was trying to figure out growth strategies for my business, it was like, you can keep plugging money into Google AdWords and keep on that race to the bottom. Or for you, it was about finding a way to kind of hack this growth and speak to more people. Yes . Than , than , you know, your, your return on investment of ads could manage. How did that work for

James White: 23:21

You? That's exactly, I mean, it's a race to the bottom. Yeah . In my opinion, Google Ads is a race to the bottom, as you say. Yeah. I just,

Eitan Stern: 23:27

The more people competing and the cheaper it's get , the more expensive getting Google's winning, we all lose it .

James White: 23:31

You did. And you did in the water . You can see the writing on the wall. Uh , the other , another quote that I know I've , I've shared this with you before, but you need to be honest enough to admit to yourself the things that are not working. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> you have to be Right. And it takes a while . 'cause it's really hard to admit when things are not going well. And I think we called it early enough. Okay. And there were multiple times over those years where if this isn't there, by next month we closing.

Eitan Stern: 24:01

Oh, wow. Okay.

James White: 24:02

Multiple times. Multiple times. And

Eitan Stern: 24:04

This must have been quite a cliff that you fell off then with, with Covid.

James White: 24:07

It was big. Yeah. Yeah . It was big. I mean, like, it was just, it was suddenly , uh, the , the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes, you know ,

Eitan Stern: 24:14

Suddenly we had no strategy. Suddenly this massive scale idea is suddenly no longer just the scale idea. Because the thing that Yeah,

James White: 24:21

It conquer and , um, look again, the ball bounces your way a lot . I mean, I don't care who you are, you have some luck in your life. Yeah. You know, and we had someone from a very big health insurer do our plan Okay. And paid for it. Pay the two and half . Oh

Eitan Stern: 24:35

Wow . Subscribed on

James White: 24:37

Subscribed. And she loved it. Right. And she said , uh, guys, I think there's something here in our business. Yeah . And that was, I never , I didn't have the idea myself. You know, she definitely gave me the idea. And we chased that down like as hard as we could. We dropped the personal trainer, we went just nutrition. And then we started hiring exclusively dieticians, which , um, I think is the best thing we ever did. And , uh,

Eitan Stern: 25:04

Right . 'cause foods is , if you wanna make a difference to your health, eating is probably the, the first basis it

James White: 25:08

Starts . It's , it's , it's the hardest. Right. Eating's the hardest. No one's solved it. Look at, look at all the health insurers out there. Look at , look at the rewards platforms out there. No one's got anything right around food. But you can think of how many, how many physical activity things can you think of? You know, like

Eitan Stern: 25:21

A million. Yeah , a million. Because they're more fun. Exactly. So as eating pizza and

James White: 25:25

It's super easy to Yeah, exactly. People it's stopping is putting stuff in your mouth. It's a lot harder than just going for a walk with your, you know, logging your, logging your, your workout minutes. Totally. And so we, we ran at that problem and it was us and another competitor in the space here. Um , they had , they were also unlucky, I think. Um, but they charged at the physical side of things and we went to the food side of things. Okay . And we were very fortunate that ours worked . So we ran a pilot , uh, with a big health insurer here . We knew our product worked. It was never about the product. It was always about

Eitan Stern: 26:00

<crosstalk> . So what does that mean when a product they're integrating their , your offering into their, they

James White: 26:04

Sent some emails basically saying like, here's a discount. Here's this company called Best 10 . Right. Sign up or don't . And we had these three key metrics. It was like acquisition, engagement and weight loss. Mm-Hmm . And there was a 12 week pilot, and after about 10 weeks, they flew us up to Job Berg and they were like, it's partner.

Eitan Stern: 26:22

Why ? It just works . Because the people you acquired them did , did they lose weight?

James White: 26:25

Yeah. I mean they, it was, it was unlike anything that they'd , that they'd tried before. Seen before. Um , and it, you know, our product really, really works.

Eitan Stern: 26:35

Like Yeah . I wonder if that's, I mean, coming back to that idea with you in the gyms Mm-Hmm . What , why does one-on-one work? Is it an accountability thing? Yes . That people, a hundred percent . You got some , you got on Wednesday at two o'clock, you've got a call with James and you better have , you know, if you've eaten that pizza <laugh> , you're gonna have to answer.

James White: 26:49

Look, our thing is a little bit more detailed in that, but you're right. The principle's the same. It's the , the thing is, is that I think the key part of what you just said is it's with James mm-Hmm . I know you Right . You know , I'm not some , maybe it's James this week and Kim the next and whatever. No, no. I'm your guy for the whole journey and you told me what you wanted. Yeah . And you told me what you were struggling with and I got you. And I'm gonna hold you accountable. Not in a hectic way, but

Eitan Stern: 27:16

Because I want you to succeed. I want you to

James White: 27:17

Succeed. But like , uh, what happened on the weekend? Yeah . Okay. You fell off the wagon. What was the trigger behind that? Yeah . I had a crap week. And I always just drink on the Friday when I have a crap week , and then I end up eating crap on the Saturday. Cool. So next time you have a bad week, we are gonna check before you drink. Right. That's how it works. It's like depth, depth.

Eitan Stern: 27:38

People are so interesting, eh , like fascinating. People are, you know, it's so funny this thing of like, I think that the idea of weight loss and getting fit and healthy is such a core tenant in our world. Like very , some people don't struggle with it. Mm-Hmm . Until they get to a certain age. Until, and then they will. But you know, you've got all these different diets. Keto, Atkins, the meat, only all the different ones. Like the reality is getting healthy , it's exercise more, eat less. It , it kind of doesn't get much more complex than that. But we as people, we struggle with that. But we're also quite beautiful in the sense that like, you know, everything works better when you've got someone to do it with. That's why we live in families and communities and why there's a lot of data around businesses that run in communities. People love people. Yeah . And I think maybe there's some aspect that you've tapped into that and merged that with a tech platform for scale. Mm . That, that, that works really well. I ,

James White: 28:33

I think so. I think that is it . I think , um, the dieticians in this country as well, I've , I dunno how many dieticians we've interviewed. Many. Okay. And how

Eitan Stern: 28:43

Many do you employ?

James White: 28:45

Uh , we've got about 30 now. Wow.

Eitan Stern: 28:47

Incredible.

James White: 28:48

Uh , which would make us the biggest dietetic practice in the country by a mile. Right ? Yeah . Um , and, and we'll , we'll be probably double that by the end of next year. Um , but these people, I dunno how much you know about a dietetic degree. I knew nothing. Uh , you do four years. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , it's very similar to medical degree. And then you do a year of community service. Right . And community service isn't in the southern suburbs of Cape Town. Right. It is all over the place. Some place I've never heard of. Okay . Lots of them without water and electricity.

Eitan Stern: 29:18

And you're working with real people, dealing with real issues.

James White: 29:20

You are dealing with the hardest of the hardest circumstances. And so these, I I'm incredibly passionate about how helping people, but I'm incredibly passionate about that profession. Okay . Because they, they come out of that degree and that comms serve and they have two options available to them. Two , they can do public work. IE go back to where you were commer essentially. Or you can go to pub private and build your practice. Nobody , no . Build your practice. But what is a dietician ? Who sees a dietician that

Eitan Stern: 29:48

You do ? And now you've got this wave of nutritionists that probably advertise themselves, like dieticians .

James White: 29:53

Oh. And it's on the kicker is that dieticians can't advertise.

Eitan Stern: 29:57

Right ? Yeah . Okay. 'cause the H-S-P-C-A rules.

James White: 29:59

That's exactly right. They're , they're doctors. So they are ab they don't stand a chance, in my opinion , that profession is completely broken. Okay . Completely broken. And so our goal two years ago was to offer a third option for them. And I think legitimately we are a third option for them. Um,

Eitan Stern: 30:15

So they can come onto your platform. And so, so we're we employ them. Yeah. Where , where's the, where is the company today? I mean, so that, that pilot I assume is no longer a pilot. That's now sounds like it's an active program.

James White: 30:26

That's right. Yeah . So , uh, now our business is that we partner with health insurers. Right. So we will integrate with their ecosystem and you know, sometimes the health insurers subsidize it. Mm-Hmm . Uh , sometimes they don't, but it doesn't matter

Eitan Stern: 30:46

Because their interest is to keep people healthy.

James White: 30:48

Prevention. Yeah . So medical, medical inflation's 10 point half percent. It's 10 point a half percent crazy . What do you, I don't know what you pay for you and your family. I pay 10,000 round a month. Mm . In 10 years it's gonna be 30,000 round a month. Crazy. And that's if it stays at 10 point a half and it's not. And the reason that is, is because so many people are getting sick. Right. And how do medical aids subsidize their membership base? The young healthy people do it. Hmm .

Eitan Stern: 31:16

Make it , they're paying for the ones that are claiming

James White: 31:18

More . They're paying for the sick ones. Right. Right . So make it 30 grand a month. And where do the young healthy people go? Difficult . They've gone. Yeah. And then, and then what ? It's gone. Okay. And that's in the private space in South Africa. Yeah. Imagine what the public space is like. Yeah. So there is this wave coming for our country. And unless we , uh, can actually help people with chronic conditions not get sicker Yes . Or stop people who might become prebi, pre-diabetic, getting diabetic, it's over.

Eitan Stern: 31:45

Is that a , is that a global problem for health insurance? Oh my goodness. I mean, I imagine shock discovery and the rest of them here in South Africa are not the only ones that are here's

James White: 31:52

No , no, no , no . I mean, the UK it's, it's , it's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. They can't, they , and they're battling to fix it and Okay . At least in my mind, the only way to fix it is tech.

Eitan Stern: 32:03

Got

James White: 32:04

You . I think that's the only way to do it .

Eitan Stern: 32:05

'cause you can access more people, you can

James White: 32:06

Lower cost , access, more people, experts at scale. That's the only

Eitan Stern: 32:10

Way. So, so I know we're not into accolades today, but one or two accolades, if you will. And then I want to dig into a different line of , uh, of ideas. Mm-Hmm . So you've got 30 dieticians working for you. How many people are signed up to the platform?

James White: 32:23

Uh, we've got about 5,000 active users.

Eitan Stern: 32:24

Amazing. Yeah. And, and the idea of how , how many of those five thousands have lost weight?

James White: 32:30

Look, I mean, some, some stats that I can give you on our, on our plan. So eight and a half out of 10 people, which is, this is actually my most important metric Yeah. Would say that they are happy or very happy with their coach and the

Eitan Stern: 32:46

Program. Amazing. Okay.

James White: 32:47

Because unless you've got that, you haven't got a hope of changing. Right . Yeah. 97% of people have lost weight. That's incredible on our plan. Amazing.

Eitan Stern: 32:54

Okay.

James White: 32:55

Um, our biggest metric is moving people what they would call like down a BMI band. Yes. So , um, you don't have to know anything about BMI, but A BMI of 25 and below is considered in range . Mm-Hmm . Right. Anything above that, that's

Eitan Stern: 33:12

Your body mass index. That's how much fat you have to how big you are is a

James White: 33:15

Perfect Exactly right. Yes. But I mean, look, BMI is just, it's, it's an easy way to measure things. It's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate. Right ? Yeah . 25 to 30 is a band, 30 to 35 is a band, 35 to 40 is a band. And what you wanna see is people moving down a band down these bands. Mm-Hmm . Um , and yeah , we've had really, really significant impact on that. Incredible . At scale over this, over this year. And, and look, I mean, obviously it saves people , it obviously saves the health insurers money, right? For sure. Yeah , for sure. That's, they wouldn't be doing it, I don't think if it was for that. And that's totally fine. Um, but we might have had of a lot of people healthier and saves a lot of lives

Eitan Stern: 33:53

And you've got a lot of way to go still. You got detect platform . So James, that's fantastic. It's unbelievable. So now it's interesting that you said earlier, like, you know, what you, what health was to you ear when early on in life and you're in your twenties, different when you , you're 40 now. Mm-Hmm . Um , what is health to you today? And I mean, physical health, mental health, like how do you think about your own health as an entrepreneur or as a person today?

James White: 34:19

Uh , I've definitely taken a longer term view on things. Okay . Which might be a boring answer, but just like, hear me out. I think that in your, in your twenties, maybe it's a rite of passage, right. That you wanna , you can push yourself so hard in so many things. It can even be drinking. Right . And you recover. Right. It's not a big deal. There's no , there's not a lot of cost to pay in between tees . And I did it with exercise. Like I did absolutely horrendous things in the gyms to myself , uh, to prove whatever. Right? Yeah . But that's not sustainable. And as soon as I sort of got over 30, I realized things were creaking Okay . Which was not gonna

Eitan Stern: 34:53

Last. The knees, the elbows, the neck.

James White: 34:56

Exactly. Right. Just like things that didn't used to ache, ache, which is , is fine. But then there was like exhausted in the morning having to drink more and more coffee. Just, you can feel like this thing happening. Right . And just got to a point where I wasn't gonna carry on doing that anymore. Um , and so now I think of health as , uh, compounding. I really, I love the idea of compounding health.

Eitan Stern: 35:19

What has that mean ?

James White: 35:20

Um, it's, it's just like compounding interest. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> people. At least this is my experience , uh, doing what we've done. When when someone says they wanna start running, they say, I'm gonna run in the two oceans. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But that is not realistic. Yeah. That is how you get injured. When people say they want to lose weight on Monday, I'm go Yeah . Chicken and broccoli. Yeah . You know, and that is , uh, that is the , what we are fed and a lot of fed is , uh, is in terms of social media content. Um, but what compounding is to me is just doing what is realistic and manageable for you at the time. And I've been shocked at the amount of things I've been able to add and that make a difference to my health.

Eitan Stern: 36:10

Little things,

James White: 36:11

Tiny things. But, but if you start for me, what I, what I used to start with would be like, I'm gonna exercise five times a week. I'm gonna stretch five times a week. I'm gonna take vitamins. I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna foam roll, I'm gonna, you know, walk three times more than 90 minutes. And this is , it's like ridiculous. You can't do, but people do this, right. You've got friends, you might have done it like this is it. And I think what you need to do is just start with one thing that might be walking around the block

Eitan Stern: 36:39

And compound on that week to week.

James White: 36:41

Compound on that, because it's not a week that matters. Yeah . Right . It's not,

Eitan Stern: 36:46

Yeah. It's fine . When I think about my , my journey of, of running, it's , uh, I would always set out not too different what you say , I'd set out to do a race and into the training, I'd get injured. And then you can't do the race. And once he injured, everything kind of falls apart after that. It's hard to keep healthy when you're, when you're injured. A friend of mine started helping with me with a , with a training program. He's a , a guy called Damien, Damien Sherman , he's a quite , you know, Damien, unbelievable runner, unbelievable guy. And he's set me up a program and it started at five kilometer runs. And I was like, mate , come on . Five kilometer runs. But the idea is, you know, five kilometer run. If you can do that, then three times, four times a week, et cetera . And one of the amazing things that happens, I just didn't get injured. And now when I look at all at these at Ultra Runners and I see what they talk about, the thing that makes a difference, they preach rest . They preach listening to your body. And it's these things that us as amateur runners find hard to listen to because, you know , it's boring. It's boring. We know we want to do it . We want to go in for longer runs . But that thing of just taking it easy, pushing and, and pulling back whenever you , you felt a , a or something was, was a thing that made a difference , uh, to my running at least.

James White: 37:53

Yeah. I mean, that's it. That's, and, and I , I really, I take care of myself. Yeah . Uh , I see a therapist twice a month.

Eitan Stern: 38:00

So it's an emotional I see .

James White: 38:02

Yeah. I see a , uh, the same massage , uh, physiotherapist once a month booked chio quarterly. I take a load of supplements in the morning and the afternoon in the evening. Yeah . I meditate every day . Like I'm not, I'm not trying to be a Tim Ferriss. Right. Uh , interviewee here, you know, I'm just saying that I, I've gotta take of myself if I want to compound.

Eitan Stern: 38:24

So, so the thing which is interesting for me, so we're both entrepreneurs. This is a business podcast. The thing which is interesting for me is that there's this discussion around entrepreneurs and this motif and this idea that that's, that's, that we hear all the time of like, to be a good entrepreneur, it's punishment. You push yourself up at five 30. Like we look up to the Elon Musk of the world . Elon Musk is celebrated for it. Yeah . And being the guy that, that works seven days a week, four 4:00 AM till 12:00 PM Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , a friend of mine shared a meme with me of like, entrepreneurs , like, who punished you in your life , right ? Like that you have to, that you have to punish yourself . Like it's, it's all based on this idea that we need to punish ourselves. And it , the entrepreneurial journey is hard and it's supposed to be hard. And, you know, like that is what we hear a lot of about entrepreneurship. So it's an interesting thing for me to hear you talk about. And the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I think it's an interesting thing to talk about how we look after ourselves and how we are healthy and take care of ourselves as entrepreneurs. So you for yourself, you're not running a Mickey Mouse business, you're running a scale tech business. You employ 30 , uh, dieticians. I'm not sure how many other people, how do you think about taking care of yourself as an entrepreneur?

James White: 39:44

Okay . I mean, I think you put that really well as well. Like, I , I just think what I load of nonsense <laugh> , you gotta like suffer and Yeah . You know this , and , and I know I have a lot of friends who subscribe to this methodology. It's , it's tragic. Actually, look, one thing I will say is I don't, I don't sit at my desk before 10 30. Okay ? Ever. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in the morning. Nobody in my company will know that I'm not working. 'cause I'll be on Slack or whatever. Well, now they'll know. But now look, now they'll know I won't share this podcast. <laugh> <laugh> . Um , but like, you know what, it doesn't matter because what

Eitan Stern: 40:15

Do you do before 10

James White: 40:16

30? I work out , I walk my, walk my girls to school. Okay. And I work out nice train every morning I eat a good breakfast. And I know that if I don't do that, the consequences are gonna be di you said earlier, like impossible. They get fitter when you're injured. Mm-Hmm . There's so much like para so many parallels between your business and your fitness. Right? Right. It's impossible to do good work

Eitan Stern: 40:38

Because injured, it's not just a a , an ankle injured is like, if you're in a bad mood, it's hard to be a good manager. It's

James White: 40:43

Impossible. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like how on earth are you going to do deep, meaningful work Yeah. At the moments that require it. If you are not operating in an optimal state physically Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 40:55

It's impossible. And how you're gonna manage lots of tasks if your life feels kind of chaotic Exactly. Behind you. Exactly. Right. So by starting off your day right, that's what , what gets you and how do you think that's impacted the culture of your business? I mean, is that , is that the culture of your business, that you want everyone to stay healthy and um , yeah . How , how has that impacted the culture for you?

James White: 41:15

Absolutely. A hundred percent. That is something we subscribe to. I don't, I don't tell anybody that they have to do anything. Not at all. But for example, one uh , woman in our, in our management team, she has a little boy. And for her that is health. Hmm . That's her health. That's the most important thing for her, right? Right. Is, is being there for him. And who am I to say that that's not it? You know? And so that might be her gym equivalent because if that wasn't taken care of, I don't think she could do the work that she does.

Eitan Stern: 41:49

Right. I , I think that was an interesting thing about Covid, right? Like, suddenly it showed you that your team were more than just the person sitting there. That if you had a kid at home who wasn't at school or if your kid was sick, like you can't have someone working really well when they've got, you know, real issues at home. And I , and I think because of Covid certainly I saw that a lot more. And I think a lot of people that I spoke to realized that. And your employee was suddenly like the health of their family mattered to how well they could do their job. Yes.

James White: 42:18

Yes. It definitely put it front and center. I think Covid did amazing things for , in , in that way actually, certainly for our businesses did . And yeah, I think I think about that. I , you know, a lot of people, if if they say to me that it's important they drop their kids off at school and they'll be in at nine. Yeah, that's fine with me. That's fine. We're an objective based business. Yeah. I'm not, no one's clock

Eitan Stern: 42:38

Watching . So how do you then think of su success? I mean, I , it it's, it strikes me that if you wanted to live this really, really balanced lifestyle where you can drop your kids at school, go fetch them, go to the gym, like it sounds like rock gyms. So it's a pretty good thing that you had. Yeah . You had a successful business that was running itself, disconnected from the brand. Yes. How do you think of success now that why wasn't that enough? Or were you trying to , you are now running a scale business business that's defined by getting really, really big Mm-Hmm . How do you measure those two things up ? Or what does success mean to you today?

James White: 43:12

Yeah, it's a great question. Um ,

Eitan Stern: 43:13

That's kind of why I'm here to ask . Great

James White: 43:15

Question . I think, I think , and they are great questions. <laugh> , <laugh> . The , the way I think about this answer alluded earlier is capacity.

Eitan Stern: 43:22

Okay.

James White: 43:23

I believe that everybody has a certain capacity. Mm . And unless like

Eitan Stern: 43:28

Capacity in the sense of how much you can do or what you can do? Both. Both.

James White: 43:32

Okay. So unless you honor the capacity that you've been given,

Eitan Stern: 43:38

Yeah.

James White: 43:39

You are not gonna have the impact in the world that you should have

Eitan Stern: 43:42

Unless you realize what you're good at and do that you're not . Is that what you

James White: 43:47

Mean? So , uh, the best example I can give, 'cause everyone's mind always goes to Elon Musk. Okay. In this example. Right. But let me go to my children's nursery school teacher. Okay. So she's been teaching 20 children between the ages of two and four for 25 years. Mm-Hmm . Who's had a bigger impact on the world, right. Her or Elon. Yeah. Who's to say what ripples those, those people. Those are like thi we got a bunch of 30 year olds Yeah . That were taught by this woman. I've seen the impact she had . Yeah . Her capacity is so far beyond mine in terms of dealing with young kids and all the stuff that you've got young, A young daughter. Yeah . I've got young girls. All the stuff that goes on there. She can do it. Her gift in the world is to do that. Mm-Hmm . That doesn't scale. She can't charge a hell of a lot. Mm-Hmm . But why do we measure it like that? What about impact? Yeah. And so I realized that my capacity and where what I can do in the world was bigger than rock . I can stand, I can take more. Yeah. I can do it. And we talk about punishment or whatever. I can take more. Yeah . And I owe it to the world to do

Eitan Stern: 45:00

More. You can take more without breaking yourself. Yeah . That's soul keeping a job. And is there a metric for you or is there, is there a measure for you on that? Do you , do you , do you ever land up on those weeks that you're like, well , I've pushed myself a little too hard? Sure .

James White: 45:11

Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 45:11

Absolutely. And what do you do after that?

James White: 45:15

Look, I mean, I would say that I'm, I'm much more aware when that's happening now . Okay . So I don't wake up and go like, I'm, oh God, I'm sick. That doesn't happen to me anymore. It used to. Um , whereas now I'm aware there are signs for me that this

Eitan Stern: 45:29

Is, that you're getting sick and to pull back I'm

James White: 45:31

Stretch too hard . Yeah . Yeah. It's going too hard . It's going too far. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I I just love the thought of that, you know? Yeah . That , that anybody who might be in a position of is, is this what I should be doing with my life? Asking that question. Yeah. Like, what's your capacity?

Eitan Stern: 45:47

It's so funny. I mean, I , I've , uh, we , you can't see this 'cause we don't film this, but we're both smiling, talking about this. So I , it's, it's , it was a concept that was introduced to me when, when I got married and my wi well not when I got married, when I met my wife. And this idea of, I like to say yes to things. 'cause I think I've never word it quite like you have , um, in the sense that, you know, of like capacity. I think it's a really good way to put it. But I like to say it's to things that I, like a busy life. I'm like very happy when I've got a busy life. I love doing different things, got side hustles and hobbies and friends and it makes me happy. But it takes a toll. And I never knew how to listen to those signs. Meeting Leah , meeting my, my wife. It was like having someone who could say like you this moody version of yourself. Mm-Hmm . Or like, you need to start saying no to something. Sure. And accessing that power of No. Yes . And, you know, kind of sometimes just thinning your life out a little bit. Yeah . Because it takes a toll. It makes, it can make you unhappy. But I haven't quite, I , I think in some ways I can listen to it myself, but just having someone kind of show mention it where it's like, well sense check you sense check me. Yeah . Like, say no to a few more things because this is getting a little crazy. It's helped me.

James White: 46:56

Exactly . I mean, and, and that's amazing that your partner does that for you. I think we , when I , when I think about health and we tied the health of a body to the health of a business, like you've , you've got a business, so obviously I do too. And I think it's also comes down to respecting people's capacities in your business.

Eitan Stern: 47:14

Okay.

James White: 47:15

Like understanding how far someone can go and that they're part of your business and you hired them for a very specific reason. Right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you saw something in them and you've seen the work that they've done. They do. And they're excellent at it. But like, for some reason as owners or managers or whatever, we decide to try and throttle that. Right.

Eitan Stern: 47:35

Let's

James White: 47:36

Push it. You know , let's go , yeah. Let's dial this up. Give this person more, more responsibility. Yeah. And it's like, but hold on. What happens if that isn't Yeah . That's not what they're put on this earth to do. Right? Yeah. What happens then, then the health of your business is compromised. Yeah . And that's no different to what you were just saying. Like, Aton just went to too many festivals this month , you know, like that's what happened. <laugh> , he just, he just fell apart. He wasn't getting enough sleep. Yeah . That's, it's the same thing. And you can see it in a business.

Eitan Stern: 48:06

I always think about this example. Um, my brother told me about it. Um, I can't remember the football team, one of the foot , like one of the premier league, British Premier League teams, they say, like, their motto is, we're, we're a team, not a family. Right. It's like, yeah .

James White: 48:19

I love

Eitan Stern: 48:19

That. You're , we all , you know, we love you, we love our players. We treat them like gold, but if they're not performing, they're off the team. Yeah . Because we're a team, we're not a family. That's right . Families, you don't get kicked off teams. You do. And there's something in it that's like, I , I'm getting a lot about your management style of saying like, it's no different to a football team if you're put into a position of center forward. Don't make that person pay in , play in the middle. Like play to people's strengths and manage your business like that. And there's health in the , that , that is a healthy team.

James White: 48:47

I think there is, I like on the flip side of that, like we demand excellence. Mm . Like if you told me you're a center forward Mm . You sold yourself as that Yes. Beyond score goals, then you're not gonna be in the team. Yeah. Like , sorry, that's a , that's a fact. Like I don't, I've got no, no bones about that. You know? Yeah . We definitely demand excellence. We have this saying of like, only a players on the bus.

Eitan Stern: 49:09

Right? Yeah .

James White: 49:10

You know, like if you're on this bus, you're an A player , we think you're an A

Eitan Stern: 49:13

Player . Do you keep that in your business? You let go of people that don't, that, that , that don't say it's a players . Sure , sure.

James White: 49:17

That's a simple conversation. Yeah .

Eitan Stern: 49:19

I wanna , I wanna ask you a more complex question. Uh, if you don't wanna answer it , I suppose that's also fine. Um, where does money fit into all of this for you? I mean, in terms of, is that a success factor for you? Is that a driving force for you? Uh , uh, the reason I'm asking this , I think a lot of people , uh, one of my issues with, with business conversations Yes . Is that you're speaking to people and I know you don't like the word success, but you're speaking to people that have built something and got to a level of success and asking them these questions that are sort of unrelatable to people that haven't got there . So, sure . You know, a lot of people listening to be like, well, I would love to start work at 10 30, but I can't do it because I've got a lot of work. Or I can't do it 'cause I've got a job. Or I can't do it 'cause I actually need the money. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So, and in some ways it's like we speak from this position of success, which is a position of privilege. So I guess I can't solve that whole problem. You are who you are. I am who I am. We , we've built businesses to where, where they've got to. But I do wanna ask about money. 'cause I think money is this great equalizer. Right? It's like it's relevant for everyone. Yeah. Where does it fit in for you in terms of the way you think about success?

James White: 50:26

Oh , that is a great question. Uh ,

Eitan Stern: 50:28

Again, just what I'm doing here ,

James White: 50:29

It's quite , yeah. Look, I mean, I think for a lot of people it's a very complex question. Yeah . And for me, it's no different for me. I would, I would have to answer honestly and say that I'm still figuring out my own version of that answer. Um, definitely too long perpetuated what , uh, my parents deemed as success , uh, which was certainly a number in a bank account. Okay . Certainly. And you , anybody would be lying to say they don't care about money, because if you don't, then good luck, you know, with life right . Out there. It's , it's impossible. Um , it is certainly not my number one driver, which I completely acknowledge is a, is a real position of privilege.

Eitan Stern: 51:10

Well, yes and no. I mean, it's like a , you know, it's, I think of it like I drive a ari , which I really like. I don't need to drive a Mercedes. Exactly. Right . It doesn't, that's not what I'm after. Yeah. And I would ,

James White: 51:20

I mean, I've , I've , I've made the mistakes outta Porsche. Okay. Uh , which one now ? <laugh> . And , and , uh, it was like, go ahead ,

Eitan Stern: 51:27

Tell us about it. Please

James White: 51:28

Had it for a couple of, I mean, had it for less than a year and got rid of it because I just Yeah. I'm not a car guy, but ,

Eitan Stern: 51:36

Right . It didn't scratch an itch or it

James White: 51:37

Didn't scratch itch. No, exactly right. Like you , it's, it's the classic thing of like thinking external things. If I, if I have that,

Eitan Stern: 51:45

Then yes . Then

James White: 51:46

Whatever the then is for you, it doesn't matter. Then I'm enough. Like then I , I seem to fit this successful founder entrepreneurial picture. Yes . You know , oh my God, if I get introduced like that in a podcast, I fit it . If I will be enough then, and like , that's a human condition, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But I think I've certainly distanced myself from that metric because it's very unhealthy for me. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Okay. That's very unhealthy for me.

Eitan Stern: 52:10

Do you think finding an answer is , is important to you in terms of like understanding when, 'cause also the thing about building a business, especially a scale business, is it's a slippery slope . There's always one more thing. There's always one more metric. You've got 5,000 signups, you want 10,000, you got , uh, this , this , this metric. You , you want that one? Yeah . Is there a , is there a moment for you or put differently, is there a moment where the , where your work at best 10 is done and you wanna move forward? Or is is , is it more like, as long as I'm happy doing my job, I wanna keep doing my job. Yeah .

James White: 52:39

I think that, yeah. I think that , uh, like most entrepreneurs are very goal orientated, which is fantastic, but it's also a very dangerous condition to be goal orientated your whole life. Yeah . Like, there is never, and , and it , for me it's a , it's a curse. Mm-Hmm . Like, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. Right . I have a goal of some kind. Yeah . Uh , and that is can be a problem if I don't monitor it. Yeah . And that's, I think money is the worst version of it . Yeah . Um , 10 million, 20 million, 30 million foot . I mean, what , what, what is it ? You know , what does it even matter at some point? Yeah . Um , and so yeah . That's, that's not a driver . I , I

Eitan Stern: 53:19

Try not to, I think a lot of what I'm hearing you talk about is this idea that none of these things individually are problems, but if they make you unhealthy, if they make you overly stressed, if they mean that you have to binge on, on sweetss in order to get through your day or drink to get through the day, that's a problem that needs to be checked. Exactly. Right. I , I want to , I want to chat about one last topic before we start to round up. Mm-Hmm . Um, it's one that I find I've recently found interesting. You've just, because you , as you've alluded to, I just had a kid, a Yes . A little girl a few months ago. And this idea of, I , I'm not sure if may maybe it gets talked about a lot or maybe we just, maybe I just haven't been hearing , or maybe it doesn't get talked about enough, but this thing of balancing being an entrepreneur with these goals and ambitions and metrics against being a dad. Mm-Hmm . It's hard to balance it because in many ways the two things require literally opposing skills. Mm-Hmm . <laugh> , the one requires ultra focus , drive the ability to do lots of things. And the other one requires the ability to not do lots of things. To stop, to sit on the grounds and play with some blocks and to spend quality time with one human. Mm-Hmm . Um, not to mention all the other stuff around, like, jobs take a lot of our time and, and we, yeah . So it is parenting. How do you, and, and the last thing I wanna add to it is it actually seems quite easy enough, certainly in South Africa, in a middle class lifestyle to outsource a lot of the parenting roles. 'cause there's nannies, there's people need work, there's fantastic people out there who can help with this. We also , I mean, I've got a wife, it's like traditionally culturally, you know, people expect the , the husband to go to work or the father to go to work. So I , I have found this whole thing quite difficult in balancing being a parent and being an entrepreneur. And I'm curious, how do you think about that? Because I know you've got two girls. I know you love them a lot. I do. And I know you spent a lot of time with them. How do you, how do you balance that?

James White: 55:11

Uh , it go , it goes back to the very first question. I think you asked me, like , who are you? What's your three words? And the first one for me is father . Mm-Hmm . And I'd say that that's, if I could give advice to anybody, I think that's the way you need to look at your life is it's simp it's simply a prioritization. Mm-Hmm .

Eitan Stern: 55:26

Okay.

James White: 55:27

That for me is a , it's not even a, it's not, it's no race. Right. Right . If if they're at the top

Eitan Stern: 55:32

Yeah.

James White: 55:32

Then they're at the top. Uh , people, people say they don't have enough time. No. You just didn't prioritize it .

Eitan Stern: 55:38

He didn't prioritize.

James White: 55:39

That's the , that's the simplest answer I can ever give. It's the same with exercise. Like, you do have time, you do have time if it's in your top three, but if it slips to four or five, you don't

Eitan Stern: 55:50

Have time for it .

James White: 55:50

Also. Totally fine. 'cause at different parts of your life, your kids and your work Right. Are like the most important things . Yes . So like, that's fine as well. Like, be kind to yourself, you know? Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 56:02

Um , there's a time where your kids are not gonna want to hang out with dad.

James White: 56:04

Like Absolutely. Yeah . Yes . That's true . Right. And so , so I think that's the way I think about it . Yeah . Um , I , there's nothing more important to me in the world.

Eitan Stern: 56:13

And how did you get this, this idea or this your, your methodology or your, your your, this idea around being a parent to being a business owner. Is this something were the examples, was that how your parents were? Do you have friends that were , that you looked up to and that , that balanced it ? How did you decide to prioritize those two things or to prioritize kids over work?

James White: 56:33

No , there was like , I mean , my , my folks were good , good parents for sure. Mm-Hmm . My dad is exactly how you described . Leave work at , what is it ? Six, get home at seven. You know, the typical thing my mom did all the carting. Yeah. I went to boarding school , uh, for a lot of my life. So not really. No, I don't think that was the example. I think, I dunno where my , maybe just like you when, so something happens when Yeah . When you have children and something shifts inside of you and you, again, I think it just goes to like, you , you have to honor that. Mm-Hmm . And it might not be like that for everybody. I have some friends who still fulfill the traditional dad role and don't do as much with their kids as I do. Mm-Hmm . That's totally fine. Mm-Hmm . It's different capacities. Right.

Eitan Stern: 57:13

As long as it keeps them happy and healthy and their That's

James White: 57:16

It, that's it . I, for me not to spend time with my kids, even if it's two or three days. Yeah . I feel like the cadence is off all of a sudden. Yeah. Like, like I can't find them emotionally Yeah . Like I could a couple of days ago. And that for me is crippling.

Eitan Stern: 57:32

Right. It's like, it's no different to our example from earlier. It's hard to be a good manager at work when you feel like something is crippling you in the background. Even if , if that thing is that you drank too much on the weekend or if that thing is that you haven't seen your kids and haven't touched base, it's really hard to be the best version of yourself at work's.

James White: 57:49

Exactly. Right. Yeah. I think so much the secret to life in my opinion is awareness. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .

Eitan Stern: 57:55

Okay.

James White: 57:55

If you , if you can, if you can know yourself and become aware of the times where Yeah . Will be very aware of what you need in your life to be healthy. Yeah. And know when you're not getting enough of those things, that's all you need.

Eitan Stern: 58:13

I can't think of any better place to wrap this discussion up. With that, thanks for joining us.

James White: 58:17

Pleasure. Thanks a lot for having me. It was great.

Eitan Stern: 58:20

This podcast is recorded by Simon Atwell. The intro music is by PHFat. I'm your host Eitan Stern. For more information about legalese, catch us on legalese.co .za or on the socials.