Bruce Whitfield: 0:00

On my telephone. Cool. It has got a lovely waveform. You have got your thing, your side. I am set up. I'm having one more sip of coffee.

Eitan Stern: 0:08

You can have as many sips as you want. I've got my next to me. I was just saying , uh, we were after the birthday party last night. We've got a German friend who, ah , you can drink tequila. Like he's a 21-year-old and

Bruce Whitfield: 0:20

He thinks that s Yeah ,

Eitan Stern: 0:22

He thinks that s Yeah . Welcome to Legalese Big Fish Stories, the podcast where we showcase local South African entrepreneurs their stories and their big relevance to the world around them. As lawyers working with startups and established businesses in the tech and creative industries, we get front row seats to some incredible business adventure rides. The problem is that as lawyers, our work is confidential with big fish stories. We're going inside the room with some proudly South African entrepreneurs to talk about their airy highs, lonely lows and creamy middles of the road to success as a country. Deep in economic development, there is massive potential for smart entrepreneurs to build something great. Join us as we meet some of these big fish and find out how they're looking to make their ponds even bigger. I'm your host managing director of Legalese Eitan Stern , Bruce Whitfield. So you don't need much of an introduction. First of all, can I say it's like a very intimidating thing to be interviewing the guy who has interviewed 50,000 business people when in our emails I said to, you've probably interviewed a hundred thousand business people and you said, no, only 50,000. So I'm just gonna say it's a bit of an intimidate

Bruce Whitfield: 1:34

Underachiever . Underachiever. Underachiever.

Eitan Stern: 1:36

What have you been doing with the last 20 years

Bruce Whitfield: 1:38

Exactly? I've been doing absolutely nothing of any of any use. Um, when I go to conferences and I speak and, and there's always a very nervous mc standing with a piece of paper. They've got a blurb six inches long. And before we go on stage, I always say to them, just less is more. Right ? And they feel, they feel determined to read this entire blurb, which I've written deliberately with long sentences to confound them. And so the introduction is really, my children have got it best. Yeah, my dad does blah, blah . Um , and I think that's kind of summarizes, you know, my life. Uh , there's a huge amount of speaking that happens. It happens on the radio, it happens in podcasts, it happens on stages, it happens in conferences, it happens , um, in , in writing. That's a bit of blah, blah as well. So if we summarize it very, very neatly, I suppose it's, yeah, I've been for 30 years in total being , doing blah, blah and , and more focused blah blah for the last 20 interviewing founders, chief executives, mavericks, insane, wonderful, exciting, brilliant people who are massively uplifting and inspiring in a world that is quite scary.

Eitan Stern: 2:44

I'm gonna , I'm gonna take that as a big compliment. 'cause the way I met you is I got interviewed on the Money Show, which was , uh, uh, certainly a , a big thing for me in , in my career.

Bruce Whitfield: 2:51

Okay. So I've interviewed 49,999 awesome. Amazing people.

Eitan Stern: 2:57

And you, and then , and the one guy that slipped in <laugh> . So that's the way you de describe . I mean, my first question to most people is, who are you and what do you do for a living? So you're Bruce, your answer is, you're Bruce Whitfield and for a living you do blah, blah . You speak to people.

Bruce Whitfield: 3:09

Exactly. And , and it , it's, I mean, it's a , it's a wonderful privilege and it's a wonderful career. And I feel intensely privileged. I really do. Right . Um, and when people say I'm , yeah. Sorry.

Eitan Stern: 3:25

Yeah. I , I'm gonna , I'm gonna pause you there for <laugh> . I'm gonna pause you there for one second. So , um, 'cause 'cause I want to , before we start getting into what you, what , how you feel and what you think about the work that, that you do, I want to , I want take a step backwards. Uh , when I was thinking about what to chat with you about, it's, it , it's interesting for me that if you've got Bruce Whitfield, it's given this time, willing to chat on a podcast. And what do , what do we want to hear from Bruce Whitfield? Well, I think, like , if people want to know your opinions about business and about South Africa , um, and about economics in general, they're gonna listen to the money show . So the topic I wanna chat about today is Bruce and I wanna know about, you know, how you got to where you are, what you do, what do you think about your career, what do you think about the future of it ? What do you think about audio? So that's kind of where, where I'm curious to head this discussion. So before we, we , we get there, I'm , I'm curious, how did , what was your background? Where did you grow up? What did you study? How did you start your career in , in journalism?

Bruce Whitfield: 4:13

Oh my goodness, gracious me , uh, can I put my feet up? Because this is, this , this may take a while . Um, it was probably August of 1974. Um, and I , I dunno exactly when the Watergate story exploded, but it was certainly 1974. And Richard Nixon was finding himself in a spot of bother. And I was a little boy sitting on a farm in the free state, li sitting mostly in my dad's bucky as he drove around the farm looking at cows, making sure the fence posts were in order , making sure that water , uh, the water was going into the troughs and making sure there was salt lick in the salt lick containers. Yeah . And that the animals weren't contracting any horrible diseases. Um, it was probably summer. Um , the roads were muddy. Uh , it was a datson bucky, it was cream and had a bench seat , a brown leather bench seat . Right. And I recall sitting

Eitan Stern: 5:00

In this one , that's , that's one thing that they're , that they've taken away from cars, which they should bring back, is the single, the single bench seat.

Bruce Whitfield: 5:07

I think so. I mean, and especially if you don't have a backseat , you know, <laugh> , you really need a bench seat in the front <laugh> . Anyway, that's not , uh, that's not , uh, not digress , not , uh, and I recall very clearly watching my dad work, and in those days, artificial insemination , um, which is the process of ensuring that you get the best possible , uh, livestock on your farm requires a farmer to stick his hand up, a cow's bum , and to insert semen appropriately into the correct, right . Uh , in , into the correct space, into the correct place , into the , into the , into the , into the uterus to ensure that there is fertilization and get really good quality animals from, from , from your , from your livestock. Um , and my dad was importing bull semen from the United Kingdom and was doing this job, but in those days, there were no plastic gloves. So old man would roll up his sleeve and he would dive in there with an ungloved hand. And I , I began to question my dad's career choices at this point, five years old, looking at him going, I don't ever want to have to do that .

Eitan Stern: 6:09

I don't think farming is for me in my life,

Bruce Whitfield: 6:11

I , I'm not sure that farming is for me. The cow doesn't seem to be enjoying it very much. He doesn't seem to be enjoying it very much, but it's an interesting process. And I was watching this , um, de batting off flies and feeling the heat and knowing that my dad was up at five o'clock every morning. He'd pop home four or five times a day for tea and lunch and meetings and all sorts of stuff. So it was wonderful to have him around. But I knew that I wasn't ever gonna be a farmer. There was a man called Jeremy Do, this is a very long story, I apologize. Okay. <laugh> , uh, a man called Jeremy Do who hosted an afternoon show on what was called Radio South Africa. Right . And it was between four and 6:00 PM in the afternoon. It was called Audio Mix. And it was this most wonderful collection of stuff I did not understand. It was content from all over the world. And , uh, the SABC in those days used to use massive reel to reels, and they would be sent audio down telephone lines, a massively complicated process. And there were little men in the , it's mostly men in the SABC recording these tapes. And they would clip the tapes and they would then play these tapes on the radio. And the voice from Anthony JE in London and this guy in America Mm-Hmm . And the trouble of Richard Nixon was so exciting. I didn't understand Watergate. I just knew that there was a guy who was very powerful. His name was President Nixon, and he was about to , and he was inspired in trouble. And it was like a soap opera to my brain. Yes . And I just went, that's the job I want to do. Wow . And as a 5-year-old, understanding that this is what you want to do, and then plotting that course and then following through on it, I was chatting to a parent at school the other day. He said, what got you in? And I told him a shorter version of this 'cause , you know , it was under pressure. And , uh, and he said to me, your schooling let you down. Your schooling failed you. I said, what do you mean? He said, you still , you , you , you still do what you wanted to do when you were five years old. That's so disappointing. And I said, oh, I think what you do is disappointing your schooling. Your schooling manipulated you into a particular format and , and framework. Um, uh, and we had a , a really interesting RG barge about it. And, you know, some kids know what they want to do when they, when they're little and others never find out. I was lucky to find out. Right . Unfortunately, I wish I'd become an investment banker, rather. Uh , we've been a lot more profitable. But this has been a lot more . We , we , we ,

Eitan Stern: 8:25

We are gonna delve into some of that in, in a bit. So it's interesting, there's this idea of like, history turning on a knife point. And for you , uh, Richard Nixon getting sacked is what's led to South Africa having their business expert , uh, Bruce Whitfield. So Bruce, what , what about radio and, and audio? Has that always been a passion of yours? Did you always know, I mean, it's clear that you know how to speak well, was that always the direction you wanted to go? Or was that, was audio a passion of yours? Was radio a passion or did you discover that along the way?

Bruce Whitfield: 8:52

Telling stories is a passion, so I don't really care how the story is told. Right. Um, it must just be told. And , um, I find writing very hard. I've written two books, which we'll talk about now . Yes. Um, and I found those agonizing to do. Um , okay . I really did. I , uh, I found 'em really, really difficult. The turn of phrase , um, every day I write scripts for the radio and they flow very easily. And then I kind of ignore them when I'm on air anyway. But they might sort of, I've done my preparation, they're my security blanket and off I go. Mm . So writing is tough. Television is, takes far too much time of lighting and powder and paint and

Eitan Stern: 9:27

Makeup angles

Bruce Whitfield: 9:29

And getting people in the same room. The revolution of podcasters we are doing sitting in completely different , uh, locations is just the most wonderful evolution of the audio art form. And it is just an incredible thing I , I built and , and unfortunately, when you're doing day-to-Day Radio, the magic of what makes audio so great, the ability to create a sense of place, the ability to create a moment in time to conjure up an image. And I'm gonna send you an audio file, which I want you to install. Okay . Here, please. Right . Sure . Um , and it's just the power of sound. Have a listen to this. When you get out of the London Underground at Bank Station and you emerge at street level , the massive edifice of the Bank of England is on your right hand side. The imposing granite windowless structure takes up an entire city block, not far from where the great fire of London started in Pudding Lane in 1666, just down the road, turn left into Bury Street, and soon it becomes Gresham Street EC one slap bang in one of the world's most powerful financial centers. Thank you for obliging me aan . Um , because , uh, that there , there you've got a sense that here I am in the city of London walking out of Bank Station and I'm onto the street and I'm walking past the Bank of England. I'm walking down towards Gresham Street where Investec and 91 are. And you can , if you've been to London, you can almost smell London as you listen to it. And that's the power of sound. And I've loved that. And so this is what I'm loving about the world of podcasting. And I want to go more towards podcasting because you are able to be more evocative, right . So you can fully

Eitan Stern: 11:07

Engage yourself in the surroundings o of where of where you are.

Bruce Whitfield: 11:11

Plus it's easier, plus it's quicker. Plus it's more efficient way of telling stories and sitting, bashing out words on a keyboard or lining up cameras and lights and stuff. Plus

Eitan Stern: 11:19

You don't have to put on makeup.

Bruce Whitfield: 11:21

But I did for this. And I , that <laugh> Big Glo , it's my favorite color of cloths .

Eitan Stern: 11:26

I mean, I'm getting the idea. You, you're a storyteller. And what, what , the thing which struck you as ago is that you could, there were great stories in the world and you wanted to, to find a way to , to tell them so many . Did you , did you ever, did you ever have a job before you started in radio? Or were you the, when you, after you went to university and you started, was that your first thing that you started with you ?

Bruce Whitfield: 11:44

They , you're so judgmental . I can't believe that you like the lastly man , uh, at , at the party. Did you have a job before you went to radio? Um , and , and this is the thing. This is the wonderful thing. I get paid to do this. Right. And I feel so enormously lucky.

Eitan Stern: 12:00

It's mad. No , you have the greatest job. I don't

Bruce Whitfield: 12:02

Get paid nearly enough for it, but I get paid to do this. Um, and it's not a job. Uh , my big boy who's now nearly six , nearly 16 at six three Wow . When he was five, looked at me very quizzically one day and said, dad, what's your job? And I thought, well, it's a bit complicated 'cause I , you know , I do a hundred different things. So I said, well, my job is to look after you and your little brother and your mom. Yeah. He said, that's not a job. That's not a job. That's fun, <laugh> . And that moment was like, oh my gosh, this is how he sees our life and how awesome at the age of five that he sees that as our life. And actually, that's the life we must build. It must be fun. And so as a career choice, children do not do journalism. It is not a wise career choice. If you want to, if you want to be wealthy, but my goodness me, it is, it is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 12:58

<laugh>. So, so I'm curious about that. I wanna dig into, into that a little bit deeper. I think the one amazing thing about what you do in your show is that it sounds like you can talk about any topic on a dime. There's something that, that happens and you're able to every day come onto the radio and put together some content and talk about something. Is there prep that goes into that? How do you do that? Is that just a skill that you have that you read the news newspaper every day or read online and you know what's going on in the world and you can talk about it? Or is that something you put a lot of effort into on a daily basis? How does it work?

Bruce Whitfield: 13:31

I think if I was ever professionally diagnosed, a psychiatrist would point to an element of what they would refer to as a DHD or a DD or something along those lines. Yeah . Or look, Sparrow , um, I , I have a quite a short attention span. Um, and I get bored very quickly. So, and, and I don't know if it's that's my nature or that's the way I've evolved in doing what I do going day to day on adrenaline , uh, on caffeine and on absolute terror that you're gonna mess it up every day . But I think , do you still have that think it's instrumental? Oh, absolutely. Every day . Really. Oh , you go on, red light comes on, you go. Don't, there's, there are words that we use in media that we don't use on the radio, but essentially it

Eitan Stern: 14:14

Don't mess this up . This will be on Spotify. So you can use those words on here. We don't have , uh, a set , we don't have the , the bosses saying anything.

Bruce Whitfield: 14:20

May , my children may play this to their children one day. Right.

Eitan Stern: 14:23

Got you . So let's see what , and that could

Bruce Whitfield: 14:25

Be inappropriate <laugh> , but , but you get a very clear sense that, yeah . Um, so e every day , I mean, first thing I do when I wake up is I go online and I see, ha has the world ended? Okay, first thing, no, it hasn't. What are the big trends? What's happening in the world? If I am talking about stuff that is in this morning's newspaper, I'm not doing my job properly. Gotcha . And there may be an exclusive, there may be something I need to pick up on and reflect on, but I need to take it further. What we have, I , I remember song or Zibi who's moved into politics now, but when he, he went outta public relations, became editor of Business day, wrote an agonizing column about just, he , he was facing budget cuts and his newsroom was getting denuded. And it was really, really tough media revolving . And they were really trying to figure it out. And he paid me the best compliment he could ever replay because he was frustrated at the pace and the tone and everything that we were setting on the money show. Um , okay . And he said, how do we follow that? And I think he missed it a little bit because , you know , 99.999% of people don't listen to the money show . They, they , we got a lovely audience and they're a wonderful audience. And they , many of the , those people will be readers of business day. But there , there's the sense of the breaking news and the here and now and ensuring that you get the best people to talk about the most important topics today. And if it's in the newspapers tomorrow and you missed it, you've not done your job Right . And you need to do better. But the newspaper can illuminate, can illustrate, can tell the story in a richer fashion. The columnists add so much to the newspaper environment. And, and Alexander Parker , who , um, is the editor of business day to day , I think is getting that balance really nicely. And it's wrong to obsess about what other people are doing in the media space. But I obsess about it because, and I'm not particularly competitive, but I do like winning and <laugh>. So when I see a story in the newspaper that either I missed the angle on, or they got a better angle, or they got a story that I didn't, and again, re remember, newspapers are ecosystems of specialist, reporters of people who delve into their fields. So they should be better at doing what they do than what we do, which is a team of two producers and me. Um, and we scour the world, but we are looking for signals and changes and channels. And frankly, because I get bored , um, we don't cover it in the same way as we used to. Um , we used to, there was a results from a company that's got, you know, seven shareholders, but hey, it's a CEO , we must put him on the radio, blah, blah , blah , blah , blah . But I got to a point in 2010 and I just went, I'm bored of wall to wall CEOs. Yes. People think it's wonderful, think people are terribly impressive, but are they learning anything? Is there anything useful in that? Right. And then I went, okay, but we're gonna talk to the most important CEOs. And some of the most important CEOs are incredibly boring. I won't mention names, but one particular individual came on and really one of the most brilliant entrepreneurial minds in South Africa who's built a most astonishing business Right. But could not string a sentence together. And it's not their job really trying to , to draw out of them anything in out them. And, you know , people who worked for this man will , would go to war for him, will die for him. Right . But he was a catastrophic interview.

Eitan Stern: 17:35

So where did it take you? What was the , what was the direction of focus that led on

Bruce Whitfield: 17:39

End ? Ended the interview sooner than I would've. Okay. My producers panicked. 'cause you're meant to talk until this time and then we get the next thing on, right? Yeah . We are not, we are not torturing our audience with this guy. And I'm not torturing him because he should never have been put in that position. Right . And so I sent an email to his investor relations people saying he's, I'm sure he is very brilliant. Track record suggests he's an a genius. He's genius level brilliant. Mm . But you are damaging yourself and him by putting himself in the public domain. You're not, you're not reflecting. And they took that seriously. He sent me a message to say, thank you for the feedback. I think you're absolutely right. Um , in future, would you mind speaking to this person? I said, absolutely. And woof , um, the , the we, we carried on. Um, because you , you've got to, you are in media, you are in there , there is so much competing for our attention nowadays. Mm . That if I let you down for 30 seconds and you're gonna go, why? I've got a thousand choices on my radio. Yes . Digital radio. I've got, I've got podcasts, I've got other things to do. You are imposing on people's time and they are choosing to have you in their brains. Mm . That's a huge honor. That's a huge honor. Right . And you betray them if you put out junk and that's what governs it. Yeah . So it starts very sorry. It's a long way of , again, I'm a terrible guest, I apologize. I hate guests like me who talk too much and don't bloody you answer the question. Um , that's that show is the question is how do you do it? Uh , no.

Eitan Stern: 19:05

I guess, I guess the sense , the sense that I'm getting is that your job, even though your show's an hour long, it's not an hour long job, but you ,

Bruce Whitfield: 19:11

It's two hours. But thanks for listening to the entire show, <laugh> , uh, the, it it , it's an obsession, but it's also an obsession with information. So everything that I'm gathering all the time isn't just for the radio. It is for my own consideration. I mean , it , it is that ability to do the show tonight and then to go on the stage tomorrow morning. And although I've got a set piece talk that I do, or series of talks that I do, I'm able to insert into that talk the most current thinking and the most relevant information. Uh , I was talking on the radio last night to this person saying, if you're expecting interest rates to be cut anytime soon during 2024, please don't expect that because of the following three things that are happening in the world right now. So you are able to be, because of the pressure of the radio absolutely current. Um, and that's wonderful. And audiences love that . I recall during this the , the height of the madness of Jacob Zuma , the insanity of the thieving scoundrel. The despotic benevolent dictator wannabe who failed. So dismally. 'cause he's an idiot. Anyway, you can do that in, if you like, <laugh> . Um, there has been, that is Jacob Zuma who had an enormous amount of power and had he had, had he had won the ability to the team and three , the capacity to, to do what he thought that he could do . Thought , thought he could do Yeah . Would've been a very dangerous individual. But because he was a twit, failed , um,

Eitan Stern: 20:42

Left , left some chaos in his wake after failing <laugh>

Bruce Whitfield: 20:44

Completely. And the consequences. And, and , and that's why decision making is so important. We can get to decision making later if you like, but let's not distract me. 'cause you know, I get distracted. Um, have ,

Eitan Stern: 20:53

Have , have guess by this point <laugh>.

Bruce Whitfield: 20:56

Um, there was the period where , um, PRI Gordon was charged was, was being prosecuted for something. It's, it's so there was so much going on. I forget exactly what, and there was a charge

Eitan Stern: 21:07

Sheet. It was by sars or I remember it. Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 21:09

There was a charge sheet. And I had given a talk to a particular set of private clients in the morning. Mm . Um , and I then drove across town to a big institution and a room of about 800 people. Mm . And I was prepared to deliver a very similar talk to the one I'd given to a completely different group in the morning. I got to this group in the afternoon , uh, later in the morning, about 11 o'clock in the morning. And you know, when you walk into a room and there's a tone and there's a buzz and there's something is going on and you don't know what it is. So I went , oh , oh , something's happened in the world. Something's

Eitan Stern: 21:42

Right.

Bruce Whitfield: 21:42

Yeah. Onto , onto social media. Suddenly I see Provin Gordon charged. Whoa. Mm . So I contacted a friend at the National Prosecutor Authority. I said, send me the charge sheet. They sent me the charge sheet. I took one look at it, and you, the lawyer, I'm not, but I went to a smart person like you in the room. I said, where's the head of legal affairs, please? And they said, here they are . And I said, just read that. Is it the that I think it is ? And they said, that's not a charge sheet. Uh , you know, that's, that's obviously, and said, what's it about? I said, you're about to find out. I said, I may call you up on stage. And so I start the talk saying, this is my view. This is how I think about South Africa. Right now. You guys are in panic mode because the finance minister is facing a criminal charge. Where's your head of corporate affairs? Johnny , come up here please. Johnny, I've asked you to have a look at this. What is your assessment of this charge sheet? You went , it's completely spirit , it's completely nonsense. And in that moment, the mo the the mood of the room went from ah , to Because , but that ability to be connected, that ability to be flexible, that ability to have the guts to make a call, and you're not always gonna get it. Right. And you've gotta be very, very careful not to believe your own bull dust. Um , because <laugh> , there's a very high risk in this game of people come , you bump into people in the shops, they go, oh, it was wonderful. And you go, Hey, they think I'm wonderful. Yeah . Um , and that is easily out of control. Right . Uh , runs easily out of control. And you've gotta stay completely alert. Especially in a world that is so fraught with misinformation and manipulation of, of , of information. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 23:19

Yeah. Just the fact that you're on the radio every day and people know your name doesn't mean you need to to buy into it. It's easy in your game to let the ego get away from you is what I'm gathering. Oh, completely. And it doesn't excuse the fact that every single day you need to show up and speak about the conversation that's gonna matter to people tomorrow. And that's, that's the job. Exactly. It's not a two hour day job

Bruce Whitfield: 23:38

And it's a privilege. Oh my gosh. It is. I mean, every I , you know, whenever you kind of have a moment and you go, do I have to be here till eight o'clock at night? You go, aren't I lucky to be here at eight o'clock at night? I mean, yes, I've missed out on my kids growing up and that stuff, and they, I have to introduce myself to them regularly. Um , and you have to make time elsewhere. But it's, it's a case of you . There's a sacrifice in it. But what a privilege to be able to be allowed into people's ears. It's amazing. And for people to welcome you in and to choose you.

Eitan Stern: 24:08

Yeah .

Bruce Whitfield: 24:08

Is is astonishing.

Eitan Stern: 24:09

Yeah. I want to take it back then a , a a a little bit. The money show, it's now a household, you know, program in South Africa. Everyone knows that it's been on for, for 20 years. I remember you saying, how did it start? Was that, was that your idea? Is it a concept you went to the station with? Were they looking for a journalist to fill this thing? Do you remember the origin story of the Money show?

Bruce Whitfield: 24:27

Do I remember the origin story? <laugh> put your feet up. Um , so the , um, it , it , it was two o'clock in the morning of Right.

Eitan Stern: 24:36

Okay . We getting the full origin story. Great.

Bruce Whitfield: 24:38

The 15th of March in the year 2000 <laugh>. Um , I had walked out of a job at the end of 1999 because the business that I, of which I was news editor, was bought by a crook. Um, and I wasn't prepared to work for him. So I just packed my bags and left. Um, it imploded six months later , um, which is terrible for the people who didn't see the writing on the wall and wouldn't listen. Anyway , um, I was doing some freelance work at the time. I was at a bit of a loose end and a friend of mine was having a birthday party. His birthday's the 14th of March. And so the party went over midnight. So this is why I know it was at two o'clock in the morning, <laugh> on the 15th of March. And I, I met somebody I'd worked with previously at 7 0 2 and he was working in this crazy little startup maverick business called Money Web . And we had a conversation, it was not the most sober of conversations, but we had a conversation said , so what do you wanna do with your life? Mm-Hmm . And so I said, I want to be a financial journalist, which I will translate for you 'cause we don't have subtitles. I want to be a financial journalist. And he said, why do you want to be a financial journalist? I said, 'cause it sounds fancy. He says, what do you know about financial journalism? I said, absolutely nothing, but I want to learn. He said, you know where I'm working? I said, yes, I do. He said, we are looking for radio people. Um, come for an interview next week. Mm . I said, alright . Then Monday morning we connected, I went for an interview. I went through 10 different interviews with 10 different people in what was a tiny little business. That was the way we did things in those, they did things in those days. Yeah . Because everybody had to one person blackballed you, you didn't get 'em , you didn't get appointed. And I went through the process of the interview and I told the same story to everyone. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't understand the economy. I don't understand financial markets. I'm really interested in this all share index you guys talk about all the time. But I've got absolutely no idea as to what it is, how it's constructed, what it represents, and I can't wait to learn. Mm-Hmm . And where they had a meeting and the next week I started, and about a month into it, the founder of Money Web , a man called Alec Hog called me into his office and he said, you have to leave. And I said, I've got that sense from everybody. They've got a little bit cool on me actually since I arrived. And he said, yeah, we've never met anybody more clueless than you. And I said, well, I did say that. I had no clue it was part of the pitch. Yes . We've had a , we've had a meeting about this and you were absolutely transparent and you said you had no clue, but nobody believed you, we've never met anybody more ignorant than you. And I said, but it's not that I pretended anything else. I've said, this is a wonderful opportunity. I want to learn and I'm learning. Okay . He says , well, we can't afford to keep paying you to learn. Right. So I said, look, the original agreement was three months. There's an assessment. Give me until the three month period. If I have not done something that impresses you by then, I will go, I won't even turn up the next day. You won't hear from me. And he said, okay, that's fine. And I, those days might wear better radio show. Um, on classic fm it was building a wonderful audience. And I sat listening to that radio show and summarizing stories and putting those stories online and really beginning to grasp. And then something triggered something in me the one day, and I started doing a little bit of research and I got the biggest story of the year. And that was , um, you remember Dave King had founded a company called Specialized Outsourcing. It was delivering sort of treasury services to , uh, Umi Water. And Okay , I don't

Eitan Stern: 28:01

Remember. I think in 2000, in 2000 I was in grade 10, I think. So I wasn't following the story that

Bruce Whitfield: 28:06

There <laugh> . You see , this is , this is why I tell these stories. So the young people can play culture <laugh> . Uh , and anyway, Dave King was accused of not paying his taxes. And he had a very clear perspective. Yes, I earned the money, but it , it's a , and it was a accounting issue that SARS refused to accept from him. He had had professional advice on it. He had massively complex structures. It was the most astonishing Right . Really an astonishing story. I told the story, you got the story almost naively on that first one. Yeah . Dave King and 1.4 billion Rands tax tussle was the headline. Yeah. The, the impressions went through the roof. And , um, Alec called me up and he went, I'm sorry, I've just seen the story. You didn't tell me about it, but that's astonishing. Oh , you sure. And I went, absolutely. Yeah. He put Dave King on the radio. Dave King corroborated the story that I'd written. And p Gordon was the SARS commissioner at the time. And all hell broke loose. Elec went , yeah . But, you know , two weeks before the deadline of my termination , uh, my self-imposed termination, he went, right here's a contract signed at you're in . Um, okay . And, and that was the origin story of financial journalism. So , um, and , and then it was a , a massive three year learning curve. And at the end of that three years, it was the most, I've never worked in an environment as astonishingly collaborative. Steve Jobs talks about how when he went to Pixar, there were 400 employees and those employees were the very best at their game at everything they did. And then he went back to Apple and he had to accept that not everybody was going to be absolutely the best. I mean, they were very good at what they did, but you couldn't, in an environment with 10,000 people, have a close-knit group of 400 that were the , the very best. And at Muddy Webb , we had the most astonishing group of people. And it was this most wonderful absorbing place. But it got to a time in 2,300 Pel the I , uh, to , to leave. And I , I phoned up a man called Dan <inaudible> , who you'll know from ENCA. And , um, he was the chairman of Prime Media Broadcasting at the time. And I phoned him up and I said, you guys got a gap? And they said, well, we were just thinking about a change that we need to make within our environment and your name came up, why don't you pop in for an interview? And I met the chief executive, Terry Quaid behind a pillar at Stephanie's in Hyde Park. It's now a beauty parlor or something. Um , and she was terrified that somebody was gonna see us talking. But we had a conversation and we talked and she said, okay, when can you start? Um, and I spent 12 months just doing morning and evening market report . So two minutes at a time going , this is happening, this is happening, this is happening. Got a called into a meeting with an Australian radio consultant and Terry <inaudible> and the one day in early 2004 and was told, okay, so on Monday we're doing a new show. This is the Australian speaking, by the way. Uh , on Monday you're doing a show , uh, you're gonna do 20 minutes. David O'Sullivan is gonna do news. You'll do business, you'll do sport , you'll do 20 minutes, don't mess it up. Right. Okay then. So we did the world at six , um, for a period of time. And , uh, about a month later I was called into a meeting and the Australian consultant said, sorry mate, it's not working. I went , well, thanks very much for the opportunity. This seems to be a, a trend <laugh> , uh, I I've really enjoyed this very much. And he said, no, no, no, no, you from Monday. 'cause Monday, I think it was his favorite day of the week. You're doing an hour. Wow . And it was just, they , they'd seen the opportunity of the business content. And I said, but I don't wanna be stealing other people's air time. And they said, no , we'll manage that. Don't worry. They were , Sullivan was very graceful. John Math Cape Talk was very graceful. And suddenly I drove a wedge into their programs of an hour. Um , and I fitted in between hard news drive time , four till six. Um, and then they were sort of at your service broadcasting from seven till nine at night, which was Dr. Harry Seftel and all sorts of other wonderful people . Okay . I actually do remember this . Prostates prostate , your prostate gland. Harry liked the prostate. Um, and , um, I did an hour and I started off with a , with a producer who really thought that they were God's gift and we didn't get on. And we then hired from my old company a producer. And the next thing started happening and very quickly people realized that there was a new game in town. Okay . And people started saying, well, would you like to interview our chief executive? And Prime Media's brand equity seven oh two's brand equity, very, very strong. And it was wonderful to have a platform like that and a massively intimidating platform. And between 2004 and 2010, I did an hour between six and seven in the evening. Uh , that led to some television work, which I did. Then at h past seven in the evening. So on my way home, I'd nip into Rosebank and do a half hour live TV show. That was always exciting when there was cricket at the Wanders 'cause Right . You had to nip through the traffic and, you know, get through , uh, get through to , to Rosebank to do , um, what was then Summit, TBB Now Business Day tv. So I did live TV a couple of nights a week . And then I got a call saying, you know, would you write for Fin Week Magazine? And my first story for Fin Week Magazine was a cover story on , um, the , the succession planning at Ned back at the time. Richard Lahar left and Tom Boardman came in and suddenly I became incredibly busy. Right . Um , and I loved the busyness and I loved the, I loved the multidisciplinary nature of it. It stuff I'd been doing at Money Web for the pre three years previously. But now I was being paid three times for doing the same amount of work. And that suddenly went, oh, hold on a second. Journalism doesn't have to be a job. It can be a vocation, which you apply in different places. Mm . Um , and then the people started saying, well, have you ever chaired a panel on a conference? I went, no, but I can host people on radio shows. Let's try. Um , and the next thing that started happening, yeah . And then I started looking at the speakers that were at these conferences and trying to stay awake and going, I'm sure I can do that. Hmm . Um , but that was a big step and that was a , a big confidence thing. And I , I got approached by a man called Rich Mul Holland the one day who'd been at a conference and he said, why didn't you do, why didn't you speak? Right . He said, I can help you. And Rich Mul Holland , who is a pot mouth , he's built a business around it. Tattooed, renegade punk kid , um, was just so kind. And um , and again, he's made a lot of money out of me 'cause he, he's built many of my presentations. These companies built my presentations. That's the payback and good on him. Uh , 'cause they do it very well at Missing Link. They're very good at building presentations. There's the Punt Ridge . Uh , I promise I paid back one day, <laugh> . And Yeah. And suddenly I realized that, hold on a second. But all of the stuff that people tell me and all of the stuff that then sort of filters down, I dunno . As a kid, you had to build a , a filter and you poured muddy water in the top and there was rocks and then gravel and then sand. And Right . Gradually it comes through as clear, drinkable water at the bottom. And I felt a little bit like that sort of homemade filter. And I was saying, well, I know a lot of stuff and it's also bouncing about in the vacuum that is my head. But how do I pull together the threads and the strains and the learnings and the lessons? And I also during this time, got to meet an astonishing array of people who were telling me amazing things that I was unable to use anywhere else. But there were life lessons. There were really important learnings about how they were building their businesses. And that got me thinking. And that got then , um, during the Zuma era of getting so frustrated with the South Africa is broken. It's a one way trip down to hell narrative that I went , we have to be thinking differently about this environment. We have to be looking at this differently . Yes. It is deeply challenging. Yes, it is deeply problematic. Yes. So much is going wrong. But my gosh, in that mess, somebody like this, most soft spoken , un abrasive, une ego-driven human being I think I've ever met Mm . Is able to stand up and say, this is wrong. And no, you can't do it as public, as public protector. That was a moment. And I've met her and was just blown away by her humility and focus and thoroughness of her job. And as a lawyer, she's a trained lawyer. She was instrumental , um, in the deep background of the constitutional negotiations of the early 1990s. And she was just, we worked very hard for this constitution. We worked very hard to create this place and people must play by the rules and my role as public protectors to protect the public.

Eitan Stern: 36:21

Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 36:22

And I went, she's astonishing. And then I went, but Robbie Bro's . Astonishing Brian Coffey , not everybody likes him, but he's astonishing Andrew Gore . But not everybody loves discovery, but he's

Eitan Stern: 36:32

Astonishing. Astonishing. Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 36:34

And actually there are a thousand other people building amazing businesses very quietly that need to be amplified. Let's listen to their stories, let's learn from them. And suddenly, you know, with the , the scope of the money show went from CEO , results, results, results, economic data, important, important , important to interesting, inspiring, uplifting. And that I had a light bulb moment. And I went, my job here is not to tell people what is happening. Yes. It's to tell people what is happening, but also to tell 'em what is really happening. Yes. Bad stuff. Bad stuff, bad stuff. But amazing. Amazing, amazing. Let's not forget about the amazing Yeah . And that changed my mindset and it's helped to change many other people's mindsets in terms of cutting through clutter, cutting through noise, cutting through chaos, and going Yes. But chaos and uncertainty and unpredictability provide opportunities for those for sure . Who are able to look

Eitan Stern: 37:30

To grab them through

Bruce Whitfield: 37:32

The chaos and the uncertainty.

Eitan Stern: 37:33

Yeah. It's something that's always amazed me about South Africa. Right. On paper. South Africa is a, is a, is a steaming issue, part of trash. There's so many things going on, it's like wrong and crime and , and , and, and, and corruption. But still, every day businesses function, the rubbish is collected. Um , the people are buying new cars, businesses are being started, and people are making a lot of money. You know, you go out to restaurants every single night, they're full. So something is working in it . There's something about like viewing the , the microeconomics and the macroeconomics, which don't fully speak to each other in South Africa. And

Bruce Whitfield: 38:06

I don't think the data is accurate. I mean, if you, if you read the work of Gigi , um, who's an astonishing human being, he wrote a book called Omics and then the Omic Revolution. Yes . And he grew up almost as a , a native Zulu speaker on the banks of the Ella River. His parents decided that they were opting out and they were big dairy farmers. And they went and lived on the banks of the Ella River. And he went to the local farm school and eventually a guy from the education department arrived and said, this white kid can't go to school with Zulus and made him go to school in town. But his , he , he , he developed a very deep affinity and a heritage and an understanding of the nuance of Zulu culture in particular. Um , and he is a deep respect for tradition. He has a deep respect for people. He understands hierarchies, he understands the role of grandmothers. He understands all of that stuff. And he's been able to carve an astonishing career for himself in , um, I hate the term, the township economy. 'cause the township economy is the economy, but in sector , a micro informal sector , economy sector within , within townships informal sector . Yeah . Informal sector. And he, he went in and because he is humble and because he's nuanced and because he understands people who live in these areas and, and he respects cultures, he is very humble and people then welcome him in. And he's , and he's willing to learn. He's not dictating, he's not doing things . He say , why are things working like this? And then has found ways of introducing, you know, for example, great township food as a Dakota , which is, you know , a bit like a Dagwood sandwich, I suppose. Mm . But he found, he thought nobody was putting cheese on quarters . So he went off to Palmate and said, there's a , a market there for those if you like them processed cheese slices Yeah . That you're not exploiting. And suddenly Palmate sells a processed cheese slices went through the roof. Right. Because the guys doing quarters and the township got a slice of cheese on the quarter. Oh . It's like putting cheese on the cheeseburger. You can't taste it, but my goodness mean you feel good. Um , your half words say thank you, but you go, oh , well

Eitan Stern: 39:58

You feel bad afterwards, but feel good at the time. Yeah . <laugh> ,

Bruce Whitfield: 40:00

I am having , I'm having a cheeseburger. And , and so he's been able to do that and also to explain the fact that South Africa's economy is not GDP driven . It is not. Right . That's the data. That's the data the world sees. The ratings agency see it, they all use that same data set , but actually there's astonishing stuff happening in the informal sector. Yeah. If you look at youth unemployment in South Africa, if 70% now in any place in the world, if people truly, if 70% of people under the age of 34 were unemployed, there would be a a , a proper revolution. Right . A French Revolution style revolution. The fact that that has not occurred, the , the , the , the , the , the , the Arab Spring scenario that people talk about in South Africa implies that many people are involved in the informal se se sector. They're not being measured, they're not being taxed, they're not participating in the economy as you and I might see it, but they are active.

Eitan Stern: 40:53

I hear what you're saying. Like the , the data, the data isn't in giving us the answers or the , a true picture of it . And I mean, there's probably, and we've discovered in the last few years, the informal sector, whatever you're gonna call it, is way more active than than anyone thought it was. Yeah .

Bruce Whitfield: 41:08

Vibrant. It's creative and it's exciting.

Eitan Stern: 41:11

Yeah. So do you feel like this is why , why the money show has stayed relevant of all the years? I mean, as you say, like the, the, the , the , the state of media is that this stuff to listen to all the time You're competing with podcasts, you're competing with international journalism, you're competing with music and, and , and , uh, TikTok and YouTube. I , is that your sense, do you think it's your show and your , your brand of journalism has stayed relevant because you have focused on the stories that are interesting to South Africans or something wider than just the economy?

Bruce Whitfield: 41:39

So I , I ha there's an unwritten rule, but my producers are slowly, it's taken 10 years, but they're coming to terms with the unwritten rule, <laugh> . And the unwritten rule is, if it's important, it must beyond the money show.

Eitan Stern: 41:50

Right. Uh ,

Bruce Whitfield: 41:51

If it is important but boring, we'll refer to it. Yes. And if we can make it interesting, then we will try and make it interesting. If we can't make it interesting. It's a quick reference point and why you need to be aware of this, but let's move on to something more interesting. I would rather much rather have stuff that is interesting on the radio than stuff is important. Ideally, you want it to be important and interesting. Interesting . Yeah . Interesting people to tell the story. But if you can't find anybody interesting as in the example of the CEOI mentioned earlier, I was happy never to talk to that company again. I speak about the company, but never to the company. Again, if they're pushed back and said, no, this person is our person and only he shall speak, then I'll say terribly sorry. But we can't accommodate him because I will not allow my listeners to be abused in that way, <laugh> . Because , and, and it's not good for him. And I'm not prepared to play that game. I could put him on and we could have lots of fun and sneaker like school boys and school and school kids. But really, what's the value in that? So to be relevant, to be up in an environment that is difficult and I'm, I'm busy working on a research paper at the moment. Am I allowed to disclose it? I wonder. I know a lawyer so you can protect me <laugh> . That's right . But it's, it's , it's about why South Africa, which is by many, many measures a deeply dysfunctional business environment. Yeah.

Eitan Stern: 43:05

Why

Bruce Whitfield: 43:05

Is it that we produce so many high functioning, highly competitive global businesses Yeah . Of such a tough environment.

Eitan Stern: 43:13

What's your answer? Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 43:14

I suspect, and I'm hoping the research will prove that it is because of the environment that you build these tough and resilient and massively flexible and entrepreneurial businesses that then are able to exploit when the market, when they outgrow the market, or maybe they deliberately start to as a just a , a testing ground in South Africa, which is also fine. They go out into the world and they go, we can be relevant worldwide.

Eitan Stern: 43:37

Yeah. I mean this is the focus OO of your book , uh, genius, which is , uh, these South African businesses that do extremely well globally. And it's funny, if I think back to, back to Covid, you know, like for South African businesses and South African entrepreneurs to be adaptive, the power goes off. You're cool, you need to adapt to it. The , uh, a new regulation comes in which shuts down your business. You need to be adaptive. We, we are adaptive entrepreneurs. Whereas, I mean, for , for for foreign businesses who've, who've got such a stable environment to work in, that covid was a , a was a , a nightmare shut down many businesses because people couldn't, couldn't adapt.

Bruce Whitfield: 44:09

Yeah. I'm not for one moment saying that, you know , it's a good thing that we have such a , a dysfunctional environment. No, of course not . But the consequence of it is that you, you breed a very special type of thinking Yeah . And a very special type of management. It's a , it's a high adrenaline, high stress un in many respects, unhelpful environment. But that does breed a toughness and a resilience and a flexibility a hundred percent that very few people in Yeah . More developed economies have. And that can also have the effect of , you know, the , the developing a bias in your brain thinking we can do anything anywhere. Yeah . As South African businesses track record in a place like Australia suggests because people go, oh, well

Eitan Stern: 44:49

I've got friends we can do anyway in Australia.

Bruce Whitfield: 44:50

Australia is the same as as as developed market South Africa. Therefore we can take our insurance business and just insert it in there and we only need to get 5% of the market and then we can be superstars. Or like the , the lovely late Raymond Ackerman went into Australia and got his butt kicked twice , um, because he just wasn't welcome. Yeah . And eventually got the message and came back again. And while, you know , pick and pay was mucking about in Australia, Whitey Basson and , and Christo visa will build ShopRite into this. Most astonishing, it's incredible, highly competitive business. So you can easily be distracted by your own sense of brilliance. But at the same time, if you stay focused and humble and true to your, your brand and your position and your business, there are a great number of great South African stories that have done very, very well in many parts of the world. So

Eitan Stern: 45:39

I think, like what I'm gathering from this conversation is what you , what you've built for yourself in your career and is this idea of the trust of South Africans, people listen to, to your show. 'cause they , they , they trust that the information's gonna be good. And you've built this, this idea of being a , a trusted business person essentially. That what I'm hearing is like , that's, that's really the, the asset , if you will, of your, your career. So how , how do you think about that? How do you think about that as you, as you start to like , you know, delve in thing ? You said you started to do podcasts, now you're writing writing books. I've listened to some of your podcasts. I mean , uh, um, I've obviously read your books. How do you think about what , what happens next That what , what you do with that trust of South Africans?

Bruce Whitfield: 46:17

Uh , uh, it's funny that, I mean, I'm, I'm touched that you talk about it like that and it's not something that I consider because I, the meeting with Terry ve when we shook on , uh, the fact that I was going to join Primea in 2003. Yeah. She looked at me and , and , and Terry is terrifying. I mean, whoa , scary, scary person. <laugh> , she's, she's got the look that she's from Belcom and so she, she knows where there are empty mineshafts and she will put you there. Right. If , if you misbehave, you have that feeling. She never utters it. But you have that feeling. Sorry. Sure. Um , she's a very nice person. Um , but she just said to me, don't steal from me. Right. And I went, pardon? And she went, don't steal from me. And I went, okay, I won't. I mean , I've , I've not stolen from anybody before. Don't see why I should start now. And I had no idea of the context of that question. Mm-Hmm . And when I got into the business and I in those, it had gone through a bit of a rough patch, and I found some evidence of people who were taking the mickey and people who were essentially putting people onto the radio in return for favors. Right . Or , can I have a nice weekend at your hotel? Let's talk about your hotel. Um , and we we're effectively giving away puff airtime in return for favors. Yeah. And that is what she was referring to. And I , I went back to her the one day and I went, that would you ? And she said, exactly, don't do it. And I went , don't do it . I would never have done it. It wouldn't cross my mind. But I I , you know, the guy who left before me left some information behind, which makes me uncomfortable. And she went, burn it. I don't want to know. Um, and, and , and we moved on. Um , but it was that a very clear sense of, again, how you brought up and how hard you're beaten as a kid, but that , that sense that you have, the only thing that you have in this world is your integrity. The only thing that you have in this world is what people think of you. And, you know, we , you often talk to people and say, I don't care what people think of me. I'm doing this. Um, yeah . What people think about you, your brand equity, your, the , your reliability, your trustworthiness does depend on what people think of you. And I mean, it doesn't mean that in journalism. And I , I've , I've made some terrible mistakes , um, in terms of, you know, making assumptions and not testing them accurately. And then you've gotta eat humble pie and you've gotta apologize, and you've gotta say, I got that wrong. Right . Um, and you, and, and learn to be circumspect and learn to challenge everything. I mean , the auditing industry, for example, the auditing business has gone through enormous pain since Edon . Totally. Yeah . Um , because of a lack of professional skepticism. Um, and I'm sure lawyers go through this as well. And certainly , uh, there are, I mean, south Africa's journalistic fraternity has got a huge , south Africans, I don't think grateful enough to the great investigative journalism that happened during the Zuma era and continues to happen to this day, and continues to ex expose the life manis of the world. And just the, the absolutely ludicrous abuse of power by politicians. I mean, it's, it's insidious and it's vulgar, and it is appalling. Um, however, media gets a bad rap because media is intrusive, media is inquiring media. Um, and sometimes media makes mistakes. And because sometimes lawyers make mistakes, sometimes accountants make mistakes. Mistakes are part of our human fallibility. Uh , the big thing is to own up to them very, very quickly to do the best you can to undo any damage you might have done. Um, and to learn from it and to not do it again. I remember I was talking to Steven Koser one day, and I said, you know, you're a tough guy. If somebody makes a mistake, do you fire them immediately? And he went, well, it all depends. He said, did they do it in the best interest of the business? Did they , was it, what was it ? What does it , the , a mistake on the pro in , in a thought process? And we interrogate that. And if they did it for the right reasons, and it was a mistake, we correct them and we help them. If they make the same mistake again, then , right . It's a trend . They're stupid . And we don't, and we don't employ stupid people. Um, and, but generally we forgive mistakes if the intention was right. And that's important.

Eitan Stern: 50:20

Yeah. I mean, I think back to this , this idea that like, there , there's a study of of , of the factors, which , which we're going into decision making for people in corporates. And the , they found the number one decision making factor of what people , what drove decisions in corporates was, don't, don't get in trouble. So you've got these people kind of coming to work, and their main factor is, is how do , how do I not make a mistake with this? But obviously that that's not gonna drive , um, no innovation. That's not gonna drive change. So I guess what I'm trying to understand here is like the , so you've got this, this position, and it seems to me like you , you view yourself not just as a, as a radio presenter, but I mean, there , there's important work which you do in South Africa by bringing these conversations to the fore by exposing the information that you do. It's like a , it it , it plays a role in our, in our country. And I'm getting the sense that you, that you view it as that as well. And I guess I , I'm curious about like, like what does that start to, to, to lead to like, like, so what are you looking to build onto with that in the next kind of phase of your career? So you've obviously, the book I read Genius, it's , uh, it's genius and it's these , these stories that I think also Africans should know more about. I've , uh, me as an entrepreneur, I find them very inspiring. Um , where , where do you take it from here? What are you looking to to contribute further to society with your work?

Bruce Whitfield: 51:30

Uh , I think unfortunately people are wise up to the way in which I've, I've transformed the way I see the world. And so , um, but , but nobody's , um, I'm not gonna disclose. Um , I , I don't want to denigrate anybody else, because I think the , the job of hard news is really important. And I think people who chase hard news are , are hardcore and wonderful and incredible people, and they are necessary. It's , it's very necessary for media to expose the , the , the bad in the world. There's a recent project , uh, research paper. It's , it's , it's about, at the time that we are speaking a week or two old, it's been conducted by two, by, by a professor at London Business School by a PhD candidate, somebody at Wharton Business School, and another person. And they've studied 170 years of American journalism. Mm-Hmm . And they have gone to 13,000 titles over that time using ai. And they have assessed news flow and said, can news flow predict outcomes? Um, so when news flow goes incredibly negative, what happens when news flow is incredibly positive? What happens? And they've done a deep academic dive into this, and what they've , uh, the broad finding and the , the , the many more subtle and interesting findings into which I'm still studying, but the broad finding is that over the last 170 years, media coverage has become increasingly more negative as lifestyles, as life expectancies, as medical gone care , as standards of living have improved, Fascinating exponentially over the last 170 years. Yet humanity's perspective on their place in the world is more and more negative. Right . Particularly over the last 50 years. And their big assessment is over the last 50 years, media has become increasingly commercialized, increasingly competitive. And as media becomes increasingly competitive, it becomes increasingly negative because what you're wanting to do is drive eyeball , businesss , um, engagement. Engagement Yeah . With your content. So media has become increasingly negative in a world that's become not everywhere all the time, but in most places, most of the time, steadily and incrementally better by 99% of measures. Yeah . There are parts of the world that are worse off today than there were 50 years ago, but by and large, there are fewer people living in abject poverty today than there were 50 years ago. Yeah . And that is likely to be an improvement in the human condition. It's the work of Hans Rosling and thoughtfulness. It , it's that sense of, if you look at the data and data is boring, 'cause data is slow, data is incremental. So there isn't a headline. But if you zoom out and you look at societies, generally speaking, they're better off. And nobody's telling that story effectively in South Africa. Yeah. They're not telling that story effectively in the United States. They're not telling that story effectively in many parts of the United Kingdom and Europe. Yeah . And I was privileged enough to go to the Ft Weekend Festival. Uh , financial Times does the , they've got a fabulous Saturday newspaper, the FT weekend. It's a wonderful publication, but they do this festival once a year, and it's canapes and champagne and sunshine, and Sure . It , it's at the very best time of the year in London. And you go to Hamstead Heath and their marquees, and the smartest people are there, and they're talking about the world. Um , and I , I just, I felt so at Home <laugh> , I went into this place , I went into this m into these various Mies , and I was, oh, it's all broken. Right. Broken Britain broken this soul . This doesn't work. That doesn't work this. And there was nobody on any one of those platforms who was going, actually, you know, what is working? Yes . Is this, this and this. And, you know, what is making that aspect of, you know, the health service in the UK doesn't work effectively, and it could be that much better. This is why, and actually there are 10 people who are doing these things that if they're taken seriously, can improve the outcomes. Mm . And the , I was having the same conversations in South Africa, and I was going, well, yes, so much is wrong, but my goodness gracious me. These are the things that are great. These are the things that are brilliant. Yeah . These are the things that are Right. And if we take these, these lessons and these learnings on board , there's a wonderful entrepreneur called Stacy Brewer , um, who started Spark Schools integrating digital learning with classroom learning. Yeah. Um, and , and , and delivering private school education at the same price point that cost government to educate a kid . But her outcomes are

Eitan Stern: 55:50

Far exceeded. Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 55:51

Multiple levels higher than government schools. And the Department of Education comes and engages with and talks to and then disappears and never comes back. Sure. Yeah . And you just go the right people in the right places at the right time , making the right decisions and the right calls can , can shift a society for good. And that's where I'm going.

Eitan Stern: 56:09

Right. That's, and there's your role in there, right? It's like, it's, it , it's bringing those conversations, it's connecting those dots. It's making people realize, yeah . That, that these stories are there. I , I subscribe to a newsletter. I subscribe to very few, but there's a newsletter I subscribe to, which is just good news stories from around the world. And not ones about like, you know, lady Safe Dolphin or something. These are like big scientific developments, big geopolitical issues, but they're only the good ones. And it's fascinating. There are big, big fantastic things. These projects that run, some are successful and great things, outcomes happen for them. And

Bruce Whitfield: 56:38

You're not going to see the consequences of those projects for the next 5, 10, 15, 20

Eitan Stern: 56:43

Years. 10, 15 years. Yeah, exactly.

Bruce Whitfield: 56:45

But those same projects for 10, 15 years ago are now playing out. Yeah . Which enabled vaccines to be brought to the fore. Yeah, exactly. More quickly than in any other pointed in human history during the pandemic allowed us to get back to work and back to close to normal within six to 12 months in various degrees . And yes, you know, we can judge the pandemic and we can judge political decisions. We can judge, judge, judge as much as we like. But the point is,

Eitan Stern: 57:09

We got those vaccines in 16 months or something. Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 57:12

Less than that. I mean, the first vaccines were out within six , where there , you know, and it , it's different . Britain was getting back. I mean, I remember watching Wimbledon , um, in , from South Africa, and there were people in the courts. I mean, yes, there were big outbreaks of covid at the time and things, but they were determined to get their economy back on track. And that was enabled by the belief that vaccines could, could help

Eitan Stern: 57:33

A hundred percent. Bruce , I wanna ask a , a , a different and interesting question to you. Well , well, I hope it's an interesting one. If I think about like some of the other people that the , these, these business personalities in South Africa , some that you'll know well from your show, some like Pablo Fordis , who's got , uh, he's got his business, oric , the incubator , um, Warren Ingram, who, who you've run the podcast with, he's got Galileo Capital and the , the , the other business experts in this country utilize their, their , their presence, their brand, their stage in order to build this business that's behind them, right? Yeah . It's like a way to leverage this thing. I don't get the sense that you have this business, this other interests outside of media, outside of journalism that you're building. Has that ever been an interest of yours? Or is what you want to do is you wanna tell the stories and whatever medium there are because that's the value that you see? Or, or, I mean, you , you said earlier you're a journalist and you, you know, you , you don't earn enough as a, as a journalist. You , you would've been richer if you became an investment banker. Is is that a motivator for you? Is that a direction that you've ever thought of going?

Bruce Whitfield: 58:29

Have you been talking to my wife? No . <laugh> , um,

Eitan Stern: 58:32

Actually taught you times sometimes,

Bruce Whitfield: 58:35

You know, it , it , it's, no , look. I mean, and , and it is. And that's why I would never recommend anybody goes into journalism, because it's all al true with stick and all nice and stuff. I mean, I, I, I have leveraged with, I I believe integrity, the radio platform into other spheres of life. Makes sense . A bit of tv, the books. Yeah . Public speaking. Um, and , um, it's provided me with a profile that enable that, that en encourages people to invite me to come into their boardrooms, come into their excos, come into their management, their leadership conferences, and to deliver a perspective. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And I'm , I , I've , uh, this poor head of mine has too many ideas and too few executions of the ideas, because there's only one of me. So it's not a business. I

Eitan Stern: 59:26

Don't know . We worked together for a little bit and I, and I , and I beg to define that you seem to execute these things just fine. The , the quickest book I've ever seen written was your book, <laugh>.

Bruce Whitfield: 59:36

Okay. Look . But again, because of a short attention span, if I don't do it within three months, it doesn't happen. And , uh, and I need to move on because I do get bored quickly. But, but the, you know, I , I'm , I develop content all the time. Mm-Hmm . Evolve content all the time. So this, this research paper that I found is wonderful. 'cause it talks exactly into the space where I am of misinformation and everything else, and constantly building and enhancing product. Yeah. And the wonderful thing about public speaking, and that is really the business of Bruce, which is the , the place where there, it's lucrative. You're still selling time , um, a bit like a single lawyer or a single accountant. Um, you know, you are, you are limited by your capacity. You, you've built a business of lawyers

Eitan Stern: 1:00:19

24 hours in a day. Yeah,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:00:20

Absolutely. But you've built a business of , you've built a team around you who are all experts in what they do and deliver legal services to multiple people. And that's the only way to grow. Um , I choose to not , um, have a team of 10 or 12, because I don't wanna be distracted by managing 10 or 12 people. Sure . And to be sure , be checking the integrity and to be monitoring integrity and to be saying to people, don't steal. Um , and to be that manager , um, it's, I've managed teams before and I'm really, it doesn't improve my quality of life. And I'm , and , and I ,

Eitan Stern: 1:00:52

That's not the thing that makes it feel like not work.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:00:55

No. And , and I'm not a nice person with it. I mean, I , I have very clear ideas of my own ethics, and I have very clear ethics of what I expect. Mm . And where people don't deliver on it, I can be a bit mean. And I don't like that about myself. And so I choose not to do that. Mm . Um , and I think I can bring a lot more value to the world by being just thinking differently about the world and sharing that. Yeah . And I will share it on as many platforms as I possibly can and amplify it in as many ways as I possibly can.

Eitan Stern: 1:01:22

Yeah. And what's, what's your view as you start to grow your, your brand internationally and start to do more international speakers? Is there, I mean, in South Africa, you , I mean, this podcast is called Big Fish Stories, right? It's about the , the big fish in the small pond of South Africa. What's it like out there? Are you finding that there's traction around it ? Are you finding your , that , that your brand of journalism relevant to in the international markets ?

Bruce Whitfield: 1:01:41

There , there are a couple of aspects to that. Absolutely. My brand of journalism is relevant. Mm-Hmm . My gosh. Is it hard to get heard? Um , and, you know, a big fish in small pond, you , you start thinking that you could do almost anything. Um , and it's very nice when your phone rings. And I , I've received two emails this morning Mm . Um , saying, will youe this, will you do this? Will you come and speak here? And yeah . Um , I've got a wonderful person who works with me who will , who will respond to those. Um, because people do, people do come to you, which is fabulous. When you go into new markets and you're testing, and I'm testing in the uk I'm testing in the United States. I'm testing in the United Arab Emirates. At the moment, I'm thinking of changing all my social media titles to Bruce Whitfield, IMM. Okay. Sounds like oh oh seven, international man of mystery, <laugh>,

Eitan Stern: 1:02:26

International man of media, <laugh> ,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:02:28

International Man of media now prefer mystery, mystery <laugh> . Um , it's , it's , it's more mysterious, but it , it is, it is that sense that, yes, I , uh, I deeply love my homeland. I deeply love South Africa, and I think that we have got so many things that we can teach. Um, uh, there are many crises. The , the poly crisis that everyone talks about, the , the many crises that are taking over economies around the world where people do not have the skills. They've never experienced hyperinflation, they've never experienced what it's like for the lights to go off. They've never experienced what it's like when the systems don't support you. When , when you can rely on the courts , and when you can rely on regulation, when you can rely on speedy resolution to your problems, it , it shapes your thinking in your business differently to where you don't feel that you can rely on anything. So you have to be prepared for everything. And, and so I think those stories are relevant . I'm finding , um, very wonderful and warm receptions. Um , but it is something that is , takes frustratingly long. Yeah. And because you know that you've got something worth sharing. And I think I share it adequately. People say nice things about when I share the stories and the ideas.

Eitan Stern: 1:03:36

I mean, in some ways it's, it's interesting. It sounds like, it sounds like 20 years into your radio career, you're back to being like a startup . Right? You're like thinking differently and agile and experimenting new markets. It's mostly

Bruce Whitfield: 1:03:46

Fun and it's so exciting, right? Yeah. It is so exciting. I, I do feel like a teenager <laugh>. Um , and, you know, the, the , the , the radio show is number one priority. Of course, you've gotta turn up 6:00 PM every night. You've gotta be there. People expect it and make sure that you're there. But it's, it's wonderful to be able to be versatile, mobile, agile , um, all of the things I talk about other people doing Right.

Eitan Stern: 1:04:07

To actually be those things. Yeah. To do

Bruce Whitfield: 1:04:09

It. And that the academic research paper is important part of that. Right . Um , I'm gonna be doing some, some learning. I'm gonna go to the graduate school of business at UCT and do some coaching learning. 'cause you know , I've told coaching is about learning when to shut up. So that's a really good lesson. I can learn <laugh> .

Eitan Stern: 1:04:25

So I'm curious about, I'm curious about one thing, and I , and I dunno if you're gonna gonna have an answer if this is anywhere in your, in your realm, but I'm curious about this. It , we , we are in a world now. So you , you're , you've , you're this journalist with a , with years of integrity and backing behind it , years of research, and a real expert in the subject. But we're in a world with social media platforms and TikTok and whatnot that people are looking for short, quick answers. There's a million different, but new business experts that are out there, you know, lots of new get rich quick schemes, and you know, lots of people out there which are saying, listen, we understand money, we understand finance. We want your time. How do you feel about that? Is that something like that that irritates you about the world of, of financial journalism? Or is that something exciting for you? I'll tell , I'll tell you an example. I think about, like, there's a lot of life co like everyone's suddenly a life coach or holistic coach. But there's, you know, psychologists out there that will look at it and say, well, you know, that's not the backing that you need . So I'm curious about your perspective on the, the new world of social media experts.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:05:17

I find no , look, I mean, social media experts, boom. Shoot , shoot me in the head, please. Um , <laugh> , they're , they're the , the level of, so I I I , I've had a very serious conversation. I'm , I'm working with a group of very serious and amazing people, and we get be doing some incredible projects, advisory projects, different places over the next, over the next six to eight months. Yeah . Um, and one of them said, well, you do need a coaching qualification to be able to do this aspect of what we do. Mm-Hmm . And I said, all right , finally we go do some research. And I went into, oh my goodness me , the snake oil oz out of my computer. It was just awful. I went straight back to this guy and I went, I'm, he said, okay, now I know exactly where you've been. You've been to Doc . It's a bit like, you know , having a medical diagnosis from Dr . Google. Right. It's going to tell you that you have an awful ailment when in fact all you really have is a rash. And it's fine. And a little cream will sort it out. It's not because of any of your extramural activities on the weekend.

Eitan Stern: 1:06:08

As a new parent, I've learned my lesson in Googling anything at three in the morning, you're always gonna get a wrong answer about what's going on <laugh>

Bruce Whitfield: 1:06:15

Ex . Exactly. And you will leap to the worst conclusion. Always . Yeah . Because that's the way we wired. You wanna protect the , the life of this , the , of your little baby. And so the , so the , the , the , the artificial nature of the TikTok expert and all of that sort of stuff is diabolical. However, it is also a wonderful window on real talent and real skill. And I mean, it , just to test this, Warren Ingram and I have teamed up to create an independent product because we are just trying stuff and we are calling it the Financial Freedom pod. Yeah . And it's three minutes once a week of, of podcast, and the people we are partnering with went to three minutes. Yeah. We can work with that. And you tee up the problem, you propose a solution, and then you tell your audience about an action they need to take. Yeah. And that action will take slightly longer than the three minutes, and they will apply themselves to a greater or lesser degree if they don't have that particular problem. They get a free pass on homework this week. Mm . But we'll go for 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 months. I dunno how long we will go for, but to help people build financial freedom over time. Right . And if you do it in small, incremental steps, I read James Clear's Atomic Habits last year.

Eitan Stern: 1:07:24

Yes. Very popular.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:07:24

And it's fascinating . Mean , it's a multifaceted book. And I think I've scratched, if there are 10 key things, I think I'm in level one of it, the 10 key things. But that's enough for me right now in terms of shifting habits and shifting change. And you have to do it incrementally. Um, and so, and in as much as the temptation of the social media world is to go out there and be brash and be bold and be, dare I say American, about these things. Mm . Um, I Boring fly by nights will be fly by nights . You will be a social media fad today and you won't be remembered tomorrow. Right. Um , I , I , I , I firmly believe in the tortoise and the hare . I firmly believe that the tortoise , um, wins eventually. Yeah. And I've , and I believe in thoroughness and I believe in preparation, and I believe in integrity.

Eitan Stern: 1:08:13

So it doesn't phase this . You've see , probably seen a lot of fly-by-night in 20 years. Completely.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:08:18

Yeah . And so, yes. Utilize the platforms and the offerings to certainly promote what it is that you do, but don't get caught up in the hype cycle . Mm . Um, hype cycles are precisely that. And maybe you happy being the one hit wonder ? Remember I , I mentioned Bobby McFerran to somebody the other day. Okay . Yeah . And they went, oh yeah. And they went, you have no idea what I'm talking about. Do you <laugh> ? And they went, no, I've never heard of it.

Eitan Stern: 1:08:40

Don't worry. Be happy

Bruce Whitfield: 1:08:41

<laugh> , and don't worry, be happy. The one hit wonder, the one hit wonder. And that was very good for Bobby McFerran.

Eitan Stern: 1:08:45

Yeah. He's probably still living on that single day <laugh> . But ,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:08:48

But you know, if the be two of the Beatles are still alive and they're still living off the royalties of Right . Of , of the work that they, that did 50, 60 years ago, for goodness sake, I'm very happy to play that game. Okay. Uh , rather than, than be the one hit one day I'd love a hit. Yeah . I'll take a hit. Absolutely. I'll take a hit. But , um, I , I prefer not to just be the one off . Yeah. And

Eitan Stern: 1:09:09

What , and what's your view on podcasting? I mean, you mentioned it earlier, so you , you obviously as a, as a podcast , radio <laugh> radio still wart . Do you think, I mean, I suppose my question to you is, do you think with the , the rise of podcasting, do you think radio has a role still? Do you think radio will be around? Or, and, and or do you think this new medium is, is the future of audio

Bruce Whitfield: 1:09:28

Radio killed the radio star? Well, it didn't actually. Um , you know , uh, uh, and so I , radio is a wonderful medium live radio. Right . There is , there are a few things like it, it is, especially when all hell is breaking loose in the world. It , it is. Other than it , it done. Well, live radio is astonishing. Mm . Um, and there are very few places that do live radio better than the BBC, for example. Mm . I , I recall just being so captivated with the implosion of British governance, listening to the collapse of Boris Johnson, the emergence of Liz Trust , the destruction of Liz Truss , and the emergence of Rishi Suna .

Eitan Stern: 1:10:09

Great. 48 hour period

Bruce Whitfield: 1:10:10

<laugh>. And I did it by listening to Times radio and the , the , the pace and the speed and the immediacy of it. And this is happening. This is happening. This is happening. This is happening. This is live , this is happening. This is happening, can be captured nowhere. Yeah . With the level of integrity, accuracy , uh, and with the level of immediacy than radio. Um , if you're trying to piece together what is happening in the world via social media, you'll get it immediately. But a lot of it will be junk. Yes. Um , so if you want a filter,

Eitan Stern: 1:10:39

Which radio, there's some filter it . Yeah. Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:10:41

If you need a filter that distills it, and it won't always be perfect, but if you have a filter that distills it and gets it down to the clarity of the water that I was speaking about earlier. Yeah . Live radio can do that better than anything else. Podcasts are very reflective. Yeah . And , and longer form and allow a different kind of, of , of journalism. Yeah . Um , and entertainment and wonder. They , they , they , I mean, I love, I love

Eitan Stern: 1:11:05

Podcast , but I hear you. It , it doesn't, the one doesn't replace the , the the other in any way . They're very different mediums. Although they're , they're , they're both audio. It's funny. Radio has just survived all of it. And you're right. Maybe it's the, it is just 'cause it's so unique. It can be produced quickly. Anyone can listen to it. It's free. It's fantastic.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:11:22

Absolutely. And , and , and so yes, for , for certainly mass market audiences. And if you've got a particular niche interest and you know, you don't like the , the the two o'clock host on the radio, well then you might listen to a podcast while you're driving. Sure . But you want to know what's happening in the world. You tune in at four o'clock 'cause that's drive time. Right . Drive time doesn't exist anymore, I don't think. Um, but you , you listen to a news bulletin that's been built through the day, and it should be really good and thorough and tell you what's happened during the day. It should give you the sense of it. You should get a sense of the most important news stories of the day. Yeah . A little bit of light , a little bit of sports , a little bit of weather, a little bit markets a little bit of everything. It's lovely. It's , yeah . And you get home and then you, you know, may say hello to your children. You may go into , into your bedroom and lie on your bed and have a sleep. We may just listen to a podcast, whatever it might be. The same content delivered on different platforms in different ways, has different markets. Mm-Hmm . You may participate in two or three different platforms at a different time. You may read The Economist, you then, but that doesn't tell you what is gonna happen. That's not tell you that , that tells you what happened last week. It tells you , it gives you a view of what may happen in the future. Yes . But you wanna happen to know what's happening now. But nothing like radio. Yeah . Um , it's, it's incredible. But podcasts also allow a focus and a zoning in and a a , an opportunity to be slightly more expansive on niche topics and issues and ideas.

Eitan Stern: 1:12:39

Yeah. I think your view, view on it, as someone that's seen, probably seen that the , the radio change and audio change over the last , uh, two decades. It's, it's super unique and it's , uh, it , it's

Bruce Whitfield: 1:12:49

Exciting and wonderful and, and brilliant.

Eitan Stern: 1:12:51

It's exciting and wonderful. <laugh> and brilliant. Um , Bruce, what a couple more questions before we start to round up. So , uh, um, I mean, I'm gathering that where, where you've come in your career and what you've, where , where , what you've built today and what does it look like in 10 years time, where do you think we , if we are having this conversation in another 10 or 20 years time, do you feel like you, you're winding it down? Or do you feel like it , there's now , where , where do you see this vision going to for yourself

Speaker 3: 1:13:16

In 20 years? I may have no

Bruce Whitfield: 1:13:18

Choice. <laugh> uh , <laugh> .

Eitan Stern: 1:13:21

Do you have a sense of it? No. It ,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:13:23

I mean, look, I mean , I , I, I have this image of being relevant forever. And I don't think you can be relevant forever. I think by having kids later in life , um, you are able to stay more relevant longer because you're more plugged in. I've got mates my age and kids are at university, and they're older than I am . And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, you know , we are the same age numerically, but their worldview is different. Got , yeah . They're winding down. I still feel like I'm winding up. Yeah . Mostly 'cause I can't afford to wind down because I've got these bloody little children. They're wonderful, but they're expensive. Um , but , but you're more plugged into what's happening in the world, even though they think you're not <laugh>. Uh , and you have to be more relevant quite ,

Eitan Stern: 1:14:04

And you have to be more attuned. It's quite e even even to , while the rest of South Africa thinks that, that you're the business aspect to your kids, you , you , you're , you're still dead .

Bruce Whitfield: 1:14:11

Oh, they know. They know. They know the truth. Don't ever talk to them. They'll tell you the truth. Got nobody needs to know the truth. Um , but it , but it is that, and, and it'll get to a point where it's no longer relevant. And that's why I wanna do things like coaching and, and , you know , over time becoming a wiser, older person hopefully, and becoming useful to people one-on-one or in teams or whatever the case might be. That's interesting . Yeah. That's interesting. And to say, look, whatever's happening in the world today is frightening and exciting and all those sorts of things. But, you know, let's just reflect on times of great change. I've, I've know these people and these people who created these great things and these, this is what they did at these inflection points , and this is how they acted, and this is how they behaved. And I, I think if you , if you go back to the ancient philosophers, if you go back to Pa Plato and Aristotle and all of that sort of stuff, and you're try and understand human nature, Hobbes and Locke and all of those people at the time of , uh, of , of , um, the sort of the big changes that were happening in Britain in the 16 hundreds for argument's sake, where the chopping off for the head of King Charles, the first and the protector under crom wool and this emergence of new kinds of thinking. And it was just this wild time of, of huge change. Human humans don't change. I , I think we are pretty much the same kind of people today , um, driven by the same kind of forces as our forefathers were. Yeah . Um , we are fearful of the future , um, uh, or apprehensive about the future. Uh , and that's right. But, you know, hopefully we are also excited about the possibility of the future. Hopefully we, we drive our energy rather than being fearful and negative into hopeful and positive. Um, and throughout history, you look at people who are hopeful and positive, and some of them got hit by buses or trains , or got run over by horses, they died. It was terrible. But the philosophies and the beliefs that have driven humanity and humanity's desire to be better into the future than into the past, is the one thing that excites me more than anything else. And I think I love that . Um , the people who have got us to this point are the optimists. People who've got us to this point are the people who believe that the future is better than the past. They've understood human nature, they've understood our frailties. They've understood the fact that we are driven by fear and greed and trepidation and hope and aspiration and love. All of these things that Shakespeare wrote about 500 years ago. Those stories are still relevant today if you can bother to trudge through the language as they were when you wrote them, because human nature doesn't change. Yeah . Our times change, our technology change , our experiences change the pace at which things happen changes. But I think deep down, we're still driven by the same stuff that drove us 500 years ago and a thousand years ago. I , I , that's what I believe to be true , um, prove me wrong.

Eitan Stern: 1:16:48

And I suppose relevant to, to , to this sort of conversation, is that one of the things that drives change is the people that see how to , to make a quick back out of the , out of these human natures and out of the stories. And , uh, those are the entrepreneurs and the innovators,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:17:00

The snake oil industry. <laugh> has been doing that for generations. The tulip mania of the 17 hundreds was the crypto of its time. Right. Uh , you know, and it's, people will harness onto crackpot ideas.

Eitan Stern: 1:17:13

Well, not just any crackpot ideas. I mean, you know, the world has changed by people that see trends in the world and how to build businesses around them. Yeah . Um , Bruce, I mean, that's the, the , the end of the official part of the discussion. But when doing the research for this and Right , that's right . And doing the research for, for this and speaking to a bunch of people, I , I ask people what would you ask Bruce Whitfield if you could ask him any questions? So, I , I want to end it off with this, what I'm calling the, the , the quick fire question. So a few rapid fire questions Right . That I'm just curious on your answers for. And the first one I had, funny, you know, and you've just kind of touched on it, is what do you think of crypto?

Bruce Whitfield: 1:17:45

I am too stupid to understand it. I don't have a strong thought on it other than I avoid things that I don't fully understand.

Eitan Stern: 1:17:53

Okay. Great answer.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:17:55

Crackpot science. Sorry. Yes.

Eitan Stern: 1:17:57

Crackpot signs with a lot of value, but , uh, yeah, that's , um, no , it

Bruce Whitfield: 1:18:01

Is there value, there's a crisis

Eitan Stern: 1:18:03

Is their value. Yeah. I mean, at some point you've probably seen a couple of bubbles burst in, in your, your years of doing financial journalism. So a lot of the signs are there. Does , uh, what happens with ai? Does it replace your job?

Bruce Whitfield: 1:18:14

I don't know. Um, and I suspect it will replace aspects of what I do. Mm-Hmm . Um, my experience of AI so far as underwhelming, certainly it's , it's very useful as a tool and as a play space . I wrote an email to Chief Executives the other day to promote , um, the financial freedom part . And so I wrote an email and I put it into chat GPT , and I said, make it better. And chat , GPT gave me an American version of what I'd written, and I reedited it, and I went in, I said, make it better. Mm . And it did, and I then went shorten it. Mm . And that was two sparse. Yeah . So I took version three and I went, that is a considerably better version of what I wrote. Slightly more flowery, slightly warmer Yeah . Than my initial thing of saying to people, if you employ anybody, please introduce 'em to the financial freedom part , because you are not going to be able to keep paying them at the rate of inflation that is going at the moment. And they can be right . Their budgets are gonna be constrained. This is a tool that will help them manage their money better, that will bring them to, to work not worrying about money as much as they do. It's no excuse to rip them off, but under help them understand the world of money and manage their money better. And you will have happier and more engaged employees. Yeah. That was the basic tone of it. And AI improved my messaging. Got you . No doubt. Yeah . And so that was very useful. Yeah. Um, uh, and, but I told it what to think, and it came back and told me what to think, and I told it back and it told me, and we , we , we , we

Eitan Stern: 1:19:49

Have convers, we're in a conversation

Bruce Whitfield: 1:19:50

<laugh> . So I see great value in improving what we do. Does it replace what we do? Possibly. Mm . But I think based on the , my earlier comment about human nature, humans want humans. Humans want human touch. Humans want the , the intimacy of a human experience. Totally . Hundred percent . Yeah . ai, I can't see a world where AI becomes more human than a human. Yeah. Uh , AI may be perfect, but it won't have the flaws. It won't have the quirks. Right . It , the spontaneity, it may not have the humor is a funny thing. Um , you know, you go to different parts of the world and what people find funny in different parts of the world. Is it weird? Mm . Um, I'd love to hear a Norwegian joke at some point. I'm not sure I'd find it funny, but they may , uh,

Eitan Stern: 1:20:33

For example, I thought you got one. I've got one Norwegian joke. <laugh>, I'll tell you <laugh> ,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:20:39

Um , how many herring a herring walks into a bar. Yeah . <laugh> .

Eitan Stern: 1:20:42

So actually, my next question here was , was from , uh, uh, a guy we work with called nda , who , uh, from from an agency we work with, he wanted to know what what would be your financial advice as someone that's looking to start investing, but I'm gonna tell him to listen to the Financial Freedom podcast. That's it . That's probably your advice. Good answer. I mean , answer , that's advice. My next question here was what is your biggest financial mishap of your life

Bruce Whitfield: 1:21:03

Going into journalism? Okay . <laugh> , um, career choice. No, but , but seriously, career choice defines financial outcomes. Okay.

Eitan Stern: 1:21:09

Yeah.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:21:10

Um, you , you can be That's interesting. Happy , driven by purpose. Yeah. You can be driven by purpose and you can be driven by inspiration and wonder, and you can love your career. But if you want financial security, get a proper job. <laugh> , um, you know, get a , get a , or at least learn to leverage your expertise earlier Yeah . Than later. Trust yourself earlier than later. I didn't trust myself nearly early enough. Okay . Um , I didn't push myself hard, nearly early enough. Interesting. And that's a frustration. Interesting . So my biggest financial mishap is not backing myself early . That's

Eitan Stern: 1:21:42

Fascinating.

Bruce Whitfield: 1:21:43

I think I would in a far better financial position, had I, when I was first approached to do talks

Eitan Stern: 1:21:49

Yeah .

Bruce Whitfield: 1:21:50

Six or seven years before I started, I should have started then . Made some mistakes. Learn faster. So don't be very , don't be afraid to fail. I think being afraid to fail is a big financial misstep.

Eitan Stern: 1:22:01

Right. I love that answer. Uh , and that really resonates. It's funny, I , I'd imagine there would've been a stock, a stock tip that you, that you had gone wrong. But that's a , that's a far more interesting and probably honest answer. My last question here is , uh, is there something that you've interviewed over your, your career that's stuck out as an extremely influential person? Someone that like, that really changed the way that you think of your 50,000 interviews that you'd done?

Bruce Whitfield: 1:22:25

So they're the celebrity interviews . So my favorite story Yeah . Is Richard Branson. Oh, wow . And I , I often, I often tell people that I don't like to name drop , but when I was speaking to Richard Branson, one of the times, I forget which one it was, he told me that he'd introduced Nelson Mandela to the Dalai Laman . I told him not to name Drop . Yes. Um , and, and so there are the celebrity names that you can interview and stuff that stand out. And I've met some catastrophically awful people. The Wolf of Wall Street guy didn't like him at all. Right. Um, he came out for a conference and he went to jail, came outta jail, and now talks about, you know, his experience. Yes . But he still is as abrasive and is , you know, Leonardo Caprio is a good actor, but he didn't get the, I don't know , the Yeah . The , the, the , the , the sort of that I get you , I get, I met Nick Leason, I interviewed Nick Leason, the guy who brought down Barings Bank in 1995, I think it was. Yeah . And this poor, deeply insecure little man desperately trying to carve his way in the world. I found him interesting and tragic in many respects. And , um, he doubled down on bets that he was making on behalf on the trading desk of Barings Bank and broken an institution that was 250 300 years old. Mm . Um , uh, people are not gonna like me for saying this, but let me say it anyway. Sure. I , one of the most dist , one of the most astonishing minds that I have tried to interrogate, and I don't think I've got through to yet, but will continue to pursue, is Adrian Gore at Discovery . Wow . Interesting. And , uh, people have got very strong opinions of the business that Adrian has built at Discovery in the way it works. And the, and they get very frustrated with the systems and the administration and the complexity of it. And I've told Adrian that it's complex. He says it's not. Um , but then his brain works differently to the rest of us. But I , I find his ability, and many, and again, I I single him out because you asked me to single one out, but there are dozens if not scores of South African entrepreneurs, south African business leaders, founders in particular, people who have built the most amazing businesses in our country that have taken those businesses global and are inspirational beyond belief. They've taken huge, made enormous personal sacrifices. Mm-Hmm . Um , you know , into that , uh, Robbie Bron into that, the ef into that. Joffey into that, yeah . So many others who, who have built astonishing businesses, but they have a, a deep seated belief that they are improving the world. Mm-Hmm . And so, I , I find people who are optimistic and not in the bright place , sunny skies, rugby Bright , it's a 1970s Chevrolet advert, sunny Skies and Chevrolet. It was a a , a real apart era advert, but it was this la la land optimism. Yes . That was espoused when you went to the drive-in, and it was rubbish. Yeah . Um , you know, and people go, I went to Australia and I didn't like it. And I came home and I just , the sunshine, well , Australia's got sunshine too. You were just homesick, you know, I went to Britain, I came home friends because of the sunshine. And, and , and , you know, like, it's hard, but we gonna make it work. And it's like, not la la Land nonsense, but people who truly believe that the , the future is better than the past, or if the future may not be better than the past, they're gonna do their damnedest to make sure that the little bit they can influence is better than the past. And I find those people uplifting. I find them inspiring. I find people who create solutions to problems, not people who harp on problems. I find them uplifting and inspiring and in , in really tough times when the world is against you to still remain able to say, yeah, that's not the smartest choice that government could make or society could make. Yeah. Yet we are pursuing our goal of improving health outcomes, and we are doing it all over the world. And we've taken this thing called vitality, that 30 health programs across 25 countries think is the best in the world. And we believe it's the best in the world. And we , and we'll continue to promote it and sell it, and aggressively, and we will change the way Japanese people think about healthcare . Yeah . And looking after themselves and outcomes. That's mind blowingly ambitious and awesome .

Eitan Stern: 1:26:33

Well, Bruce, I mean, I must say, for me, this has been one of those conversations, so I appreciate it, and I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to me, and I appreciate you. It's

Bruce Whitfield: 1:26:42

Taken far too long, and I blame you, <laugh>.

Eitan Stern: 1:26:45

Yeah. Yeah. I think it was really me. Um , no, Bruce, it's been awesome. It's all about you. The , the idea here was to , to show side of Bruce Whitfield's opinions that we're not gonna see on the Money Show. And , uh, I think we've succeeded there. So I appreciate it. And , um, thanks for your time. So

Bruce Whitfield: 1:26:58

What , uh, uh, so I'm gonna screw you over completely. Tonight is going to be insane. I'm going to expose myself in all of my glory just to usurp this particular podcast just to undermine you. Okay . <laugh>, wonderful to see you. Yeah, wonderful. As well . Uh , father is treating you well.

Eitan Stern: 1:27:14

Thank you all . You have

Bruce Whitfield: 1:27:15

The glow of Exhausted father.

Eitan Stern: 1:27:17

Yes. <laugh> . That's about to say I've got this global, someone who didn't sleep that much last night, but , uh, exactly. Yeah. Loving it. Thanks so much, Bruce . When ,

Bruce Whitfield: 1:27:26

When my first kid was born, my, a friend of mine said to me, you never came to sleep properly ever again.

Eitan Stern: 1:27:31

Oh , don't

Bruce Whitfield: 1:27:31

Tell me that . Um , and it's just, you know , and your , your world changes and it's awesome. That's so fantastic. Anyway, nice to see

Eitan Stern: 1:27:37

You. Thanks so much. Cheers, Bruce. This podcast is recorded by Simon Atwell. The intro music is by pH Fat . I'm your host, Eitan Stern. For more information about legalese, catch us on legalese.co.za or on the socials.